By the way, there is no proof of child abuse or rape in this case. Even if the
person is under 18, if the parents of that person consent to the marriage, then
it's legal. Child molestation or rape would have to have occurred prior to
marriage, and this is highly unlikely in this case since I'm sure it's against
the religion of these people. Besides that, the pretext for the illegal invasion
of the compound was false as well. Now it has been pretty much confirmed that it
was based on a fraudulent call. Thus, the only "crime" here by law is polygamy,
but if that's the case, then why did the State of Texas wait years before
deciding to enforce that law? Why did they need a trumped up pretext of child
abuse? Of course, the law prohibiting polygamy is ridiculous. Maybe you don't
agree with polygamy. I certainly don't, but that doesn't matter. If others are
consenting adults, then it should be their right to enter into whatever
relationship they want. It's not my right nor the State's right to prohibit
their lifestyle, as long as they aren't harming other people.
It's truly amazing how the fascist mindset is spreading throughout the U.S. How
could anyone defend this criminal action of religious persecution is beyond me.
The "brainwashed" are the fascist Americans who defend this atrocity. This is an
unthinkable outrage. The pretext for the invasion of the compound is as false as
the pretext for the invasion of Iraq, and that's where I think this mindset
comes from. It should be no wonder that a great number of Americans have become
fascist in their thinking since they live in a rogue state that violates
international law and even its own Constitution. I suggest you take a long look
at how democratic Germany became fascist. Americans fought against fascism in
WWII, and yet now fascism sneaks in through the back door. From what I've read
and seen, there was NO EVIDENCE of wrongdoing by these people. Maybe their way
of life is radically different from yours, and maybe you don't agree with it,
but that doesn't give the State of Texas the right to rip children from the arms
of mothers and break up families. This is a CRIMINAL action by the fascist State
"The evangelicals, particularly Baptists have unwittingly been a pawn in this
game, hating Mormons and FLDS as they do. The day is coming when Baptists will
preach against homosexual partnerships and marriage and their ministers will be
dragged off to jail and their churches will be closed down for civil rights
violations. Then they will understand."My friend I am a Baptist,
although the only 'title' that I am concerned with is that of 'Christian'; I can
promise you that I do not hate LDS nor FLDS. I love everyone, as Christ has
commanded us to do. Many people do not seem to understand that disagreeing with
doctrines does not equate to 'hate'.I can also tell you that as a
Bible-believing Christian, I would consider it high honor to be 'dragged off to
jail' for my beliefs, as my life belongs to Jesus Christ; He paid a remarkable
price for it. If preaching against sin becomes illegal in this nation, let them
come for us. If Almighty God is for us, who can stand against us?The
local Baptist church was simply helping with transport and sheltering these
folks as they were brought out.
One day soon, when the anti-Christian left is running America, we will
understand the significance of the travesty that has just taken place: The
separation of church and state has been declared null and void, and this
operation is the governments Ft. Sumter. The overreaching warrants in this case
stink to high heaven. CPS is virtually unaccountable. And how did the Baptist
Church get involved in this "government" operation? Hmmm.The
evangelicals, particularly Baptists have unwittingly been a pawn in this game,
hating Mormons and FLDS as they do. The day is coming when Baptists will preach
against homosexual partnerships and marriage and their ministers will be dragged
off to jail and their churches will be closed down for civil rights violations.
Then they will understand.No one is defending underaged marriage,
but Texas is a perfect example of how state laws about what defines consent can
change overnight. Polygamy is against the law but so is illegal immigration.
Which is a greater threat to our nation? Why are the state and federal
governments not rounding up, jailing and deporting illegal aliens in such
"raids" and putting their "American" children in foster care? The law is the
Child protective services is in a tough position. When you see a story on the
news talking aoubt how a drug abuser with multiple children neglected and abused
their children so badly that one or more of them died the public cries out...
"WHERE WAS CPS?!?! THEY KNEW, WHY DIDN"T THEY DO ANYTHING???" but the next day they are in the news for trying to take a child away
from his parents because they don't wan't him to get Chemo, or a blood
transfusion and the public cries out..."CPS IS OUT OF CONTROL!!!
WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS WRONG!!!" Can you have it both ways???
The affidavits have been released! The 16 year old callled a violence shelter
several times on Monday. The 16 year old told this shelter that she was
spiritually married to a 50 year old man when she was 15 years old. The 16 year
old also said that this man beat her on several occasions. And forced himself
on her sexually. The 16 year old has had her ribs broken, several times by
this man. Who has taken her to a local hospital. She thought that if she could
fake a medical emergency, she could escape the compound. This is all per the
avidavets that were just released. Cnn covered this about 10 mins ago. There investigators found a pattern of 13-14 year old girls were married
off. and inpregnanted. That is what led them for removing ALL 401 children
from the compound. So. Those that are crying that this si foul?
There was a patter, and strong evidence that these authoritues found, of 13-14
year olds married, and sexually abused. Sorry for typos was trying
to type as fast as CNN was reporting this.
The children are being raped on a regualr basis! THIS IS NOT ABOUR RELIGIOUS
PERSECUTION! THIS IS ABOUT CHILD ABUSE, CHILD RAPE, ETC.
Although I admit inadequate information to fully understand the situation, as an
American citizen I am shocked, angry, and frightened by the situation in Texas.
Although the right to raise our children is not explicitly guaranteed in the
Constitution, I see no more sacred right endowed to mankind. As far as I can
infer from the news reports, for most of these 401 children there are no
specific allegations of abuse, only "guilt by association" because of the
religious teachings of their parents. The six-month-old is in no immediate
danger, for example, except that s/he is being raised in a specific religious
community. That the government can remove children from homes, abrogating all
parental rights, because of religious association (without specific allegations
of abuse or neglect) is far less of a grievous misuse of government power than
the "taxation without representation" that led to the American Revolution.
Combined with the lack of transparency due to the gag order, I am surprised that
American patriots are not marching in the streets. What will happen next?
Rounding up Muslims because of something taught in their mosques? Rounding up
Christians because we might teach our children that abortion is wrong?
"Baptist Buses | 7:42 p.m. Apr. 7, 2008Has anyone noticed that the
police are using Baptist church buses to transport the people from the compound.
Are we sure that these people aren't just a bunch of Baptists wearing badges
driving polygamist pseudo- Mormons out of dodge? Sounds kind of familiar doesn't
it?"Are you SERIOUS!?!? They also used school buses from the nearby
district. Do you imagine that the secular humanists have teamed up with the
Southern Baptists to attack FLDS? The Baptist church also opened their
fellowship hall to provide aid and comfort to the women and children, including
feeding them and other basic needs. Do you really believe that Mormons are the
only people on the face of the earth that do kind things without any agenda? Or
should be be suspicious the next time Mormons do anything to help a community?
Sheesh. Praise God for any acts of charity from any group.
This is truly an answer to prayer for these precious children who have been born
into horrific, abusive families. Read ESCAPE by Carolyn Jessop and you will get
a picture of what really goes on in these polygamist compounds.
My heart is indeed broken as I contemplate the situation facing these children.
They are completely innocent and enduring a terrible situation. I also feel
some sympathy to the parents. I have five children, and don't think I could
handle my children being taken from me such as this.HOWEVER, there
is culpability and responsibilty on the heads of these parents and church
leaders. This has little or nothing to do with bigotry or true christianity.
The law has been broken. Those who broke it understood they were breaking it.
The constitution provides religious freedom, but not in an unlimited fashion.To those FLDS members that are feeling horrifically persecuted right
now, may I politely refer you to the words of a prophet who was the founder of
your faith...We believe in being subject to kings, presidents,
rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
i do not believe this is a case of religious persecution. it is about the
safety of the children. i do not care to condemn them for their beliefs or even
for the practice of poligamy as long as it is between CONSENTING ADULTS, but it
was not. these children were being abused. I'm sure that not all 401 children
were abused but they were all in danger. until it is determined which ones were
abused and which ones weren't it is not safe to leave them on the compound. if
a safe environment is established then the children will probably be returned to
non-abusive families. as to what many of you have deemed a "prank call" any
report of abuse MUST be invesigated. the fact that they have not yet identified
the brave girl does not mean that she does not exist. if she was discovered she
would hae been severely punished and might never be found or perhaps they simply
have not had a chance to interview all of the many children. i applaud the
decision of the Texas authorities in taking this seriously and preventing
further abuse of innocent children.
I too just finished the book by Carolyn Jessop,Escape and Childs Bride.
You too will say it's about freakin time the Feds have come in and done
something to the Polygs. Way to go Texas, unlike Utah and Arizona who haven't
done a thing about all the rapings, sexual abuse, physical abuse, porn etc.
Those old men are all pervs and all I have to say is read Escape and you will
never feel the same way about Polygamy again. My prayers have been answered for
those moms and children, maybe they will do something about those in Utah and
I am truly shocked at so many people's willingness to jump to the defense of
this community. It is truly a "Utah" reaction. Trust me, know one outside Utah
is defending the actions of polygamists. As a former Utahn who now lives in
California, I can tell you that polygamy continues to give a bad name to our
state. Maybe the Utah attorney general and others can take note of this
situation and take action against the many polygamous clans in our state - after
all, they know EXACTLY where they are and choose to turn a blind eye. Keep in mind that these children were born into this community without choice
and without an option to leave.
on the comment about paraphrase "admit that you did it or loose you kids
forever."I refused to sign the statement and I am still paying
almost 20 years later. I was never charged. Onne of my children is being told
that if he talks to me he will loose his kids. However my exhusband supposedly
had the same allegations made against him but is free to have contact with all
the kids. The child who CPS says was abused has contact with me and is planning
to sue the state on the grounds that he was denied his right to having his
parents in his life. We had no contact with each other for a number of years. I
was told that he wanted nothing to do with me and he was told that I didn't want
him.CPS is evil. It messes with the kids heads and the parents.
Children who are removed from their homes to suffer long term emotional
problems. Some of the psychological problems most often diagnosed is: attachment
disorder and PTSD(Post Tramatic Stress disorder regardless of how young they are
removed from the home.
Each and every one of God's children has the God-given right to be raised in an
enviroment free from the pressures of childhod marriage, mother & fatherhood. To
those of you who would suggest that the civil rights of FLDS adults and their
leaders trump the rights of these children -SHAME ON YOU!!!Consider
the words of the Saviour:"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones
which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about
his neck and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matt 18:6
Anonymous, are you posting your fathers name?Just kidding. (I had to say
just kidding so my post will go through). Some of you are quietly smirking and
are happy that the state is involved not because of your concern for anyone, but
your stinging hate for groups that have branched off from the "mysterious" LDS
church. I might be over simplifying things here but you all know this has a lot
of truth to it. Any chance to throw in your two bits on how retarded the LDS
faith is or any faith that has branched off of it causes some of your eyes to
light up...admit it.
The LDS church knows too well what persecution is in our history. Our ancestors
were driven out of their homes, children taken from mother's arms. I am ashamed
to see the Church staying silent on this abuse of power by government
monkeys.Where is the outrage from President Monson and church
leaders on this matter? Every single child is abused? Every father kept prisoner
at the town by armed thugs? And my LDS church keeps silent. Maybe it is time to
Polgamy is against the law. Period. You may believe polgamy will be practiced
in eternity, but it is AGAINST THE LAW on earth and the Texas law officals are
protecting innocent children and doing their job. This is not rocket
science...this is the United States law.
Anytime you have a lack of accountability, you will eventually get abuses, and
those abuses will get out of control. Warren Jeff was accountable to no one. The
men in this sect were accountable only to other men and not to their wives or to
the law which would be biblical. It is human nature for people who are not held
accountable for their actions and who are therefore allowed to act as though
they are above the law to abuse other people and to eventually get out of
control.My workplace is like this in that an old man holds sway over
more intelligent, harder-working, more professional people. Women who meet his
emotional needs have the run of the place. Women who are honest and work hard
are abused and suppressed by the favored women. Men can do what they want. This
is a taxpayer supported entity but shrouded with secrecy even from agencies who
have a right to information. The old man lies, and others repeat after him. He
is seen abusing and lying and then is said to be "a good man." Women are told to
"smile and keep quiet." In 2008. Human nature without accountability.
I agree and disagree with various aspects of the raid and NONE of us can make
any point as FACT until we receive more information. I am impatient to learn of
their reasonings for further and maybe more deeply mentally damaging these
children by the traumatic way in which they were removed. But one thing bothers
me the most: Why did they not remove the MEN (the alledged abusers) and leave
the women and children in their homes where they were sheltered, fed, clothed,
comforted and then interviewed? Why leave the men and terrorize those who are
victims as well as those who were not??
Why didn't they arrest the perpatrator?!? Ummm because he CANNOT be found. He
is on the run like a chicken! That should tell you all something right there.
If there was no abuse by this guy, then why does he not turn himself in, to end
this whole thing?? He is already convicted of the following charges"Dale Evans Barlow, 47 years of age, "Sexual Conduct with a Minor",
"Conspiracy to Commit Sexual Conduct with a Minor" both class 6 felonies, and
"Conspiracy to Commit Child Abuse", a class 3 felony. "He is on
FELONY probationAs I would say.. Once a sex offender ALWAYS a sex
CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS?? Are you kidding me? Since when does molesting
children play into peopls Constitutional rights?!?!
QUOTE"The government can prevent future Eldorados by legalizing
polygamous marriage. There is no legitimate reason for a law prohibiting
consenting adults to marry whomever they please. Legalize it and the LDS can
lift its temporary ban that has resulted in the promulgation of these bizarre
mutations of Mormonism such as the FLDS. Allow consenting adults to marry.
Prosecute child molesters and welfare cheats to the fullest extent of the law.
Get real."That is not the point here! CPS took custody of these
kids because it was not two consenting ADULTS it was one adult forcing a CHILD
into marrige. Get a grip!
Quote"401 people detained? On what evidence? An apparently anonymous
report"Not detained in PROTECTIVE custody to keep them from being
abused, learn to read.
quote "The police officers who invaded the ranch should be charged for
violating the first ammendment. apparently an ammendment has been made to the
constitution allowing the government to prohibit the free exercise of
religion!!!!! if it comes out that any of the women and children were so much as
coersed to leave, then the police should be charged for violating the fifth
ammendment, for they seazed property unlawfully"The first amendment
does not say the freedom to molest a child!
What happened to protecting the children?!?! if your child was abused you would
want your child protected from the abuser. Get a life people and quit defending
child molesters!If 50 year old men are married to teens under 16
that is statutory rape, molestation. We have seen several accounts, 18 of those
children under the age of 16 are pregnant! which proves the theory that they
were raped. Who gives a crap whether it is under the guise of religion. Kids
do not deserve to be raped... and forced into anything they don't want to do!
so once again Grow up!
Why couldn't the children be intervied quietly in the compound??Umm because that is were the alleged abuse is, and that is where the alleged
abusers are, no child would speak for fear of there abusers catching wind of it
and have serious reprucussions!
I guess that the contributors to these blogs will never cease to amaze me. There
is so much vitriolic language being thrown around by everyone that I will leave
this page feeling hopeless and sad. I am not a supporter of the FLDS; but they
are human beings who love their families. I believe in a government of laws and
limits and understand that the DCP workers are doing their best. Everyone needs
to step back and make sure they are being rational and civil.
All I can say to everyone that is saying "this was handled so wronf...
injustice..... etc etc" Whe you go to school, and get your degree fro Child
protective services, then you can have something to complain about.We all know that this is child abuse, and the reason we are not allowed to
know ALL the details is because it would jeapordize the case. Grow up, and stop
doubting things Because I tell you what. If your kids are ever abused, cps
would investigate that as well. This society is so corrupt, that
we turn a blind eye to things we could not even imagine would be going on in teh
world. But guess what?!?!! THEY DO, THEY ARE GOING ON. AND I HOPE AND PRAY
NOTHING EVERY HAPPENS TO YOUR KIDS, THAT WOULD RESULT IN CPS GETTING INVOLVED,
BECAUSE YOU WOULD PROBABLY CALL FOUL THEN TOWAKE UP TO REALITY
PEOPLE! CAUSE IF YOU DON'T THEN ITS GONNA BITE YOU IN THE BUTT!From a former childhood cult abuse survivor!!!
Do people really think that these 401 children are being placed in foster homes
without a reason? If the people that went into this group, went legally and
they found evidence of abuse, then they are doing their duty. If they were
hasty and didn't have proof and were acting on an agenda, well the law goes both
ways. We do not have the facts, we do not know what CPS found that justifies
putting all these children in foster care. I do hope that understanding people
will take these children, they are very protected from the real world, they do
not watch TV and have a distorted knowledge of what is out there. I do not
agree with the lifestyle, but I would hope that they are not forced to change
their clothing styles, until they want to, or their hair style. Some may be
very willing to make the changes and adapt to the outside world, some will not
and I would guess that some of the women that left have wanted to get out. I
can only imagine what has prompted CPS to remove all of these children, but we
will only know if there's a trial.
Kudos to Texas authorities for having the courage to conduct a "by-the-book"
rescue operation, even though they know it's likely to ignite a nationwide
firestorm of criticism. Just to make it clear, the FLDS community
is not some cute little anachronism that should remind Mormons of our roots.
It's the polar opposite of the early Church. Rather than humble submission to
God's will, rather than kindness, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned, the
record shows a long history in the FLDS organization and leadership of cruelty
and oppression, violence, underhandedness, greed, and lechery, as well as the
obvious and open rebellion to God. Their fruits.And
what's all the fuss about Baptist Church buses? I applaud the Baptists for
standing ready to assist these victims of crime, just as we would do, and have
done, in similar circumstances.The bombast about storm trooper
tactics and nutty comparisons to the holocaust aside, these 401 people are
people! They are victims of generations of oppression! They deserve to be
offered a way out!Demands that they be returned to a life of forced
marriage to aging pedophiles demean both them and our system of justice.
BRAINWASHED wrote: Last time I check, when one is brainwashed from birth its
hard to "know" what to believe....Oh really? So, anyone who has
stayed with whatever set of beliefs instilled into them by their own parents is
brainwashed? Then who is NOT brainwashed, of any religion?
Occasionally, we dance around it bit never too close.The idea that in the
religious arena, free as it is from the burden of proof, that the diversity,
especially at the extremes, suggests that people sometimes just make stuff up
and sell it is religion. And that they have a less than noble purpose. Not
every religion can be 'true'. At least some of it has to be wrong. Honestly,
some comes across as simply crap. Not every follower raised in ignorance, fear
and isolation is a believer. No matter what they claim, I don't think anyone can
be beaten to happiness. Unfortunately, raising a dog is a priviliege in
society. Time and again we prove, however, that any idiot can own a child.
Angry that Texas would raise the legal age of marriage to sixteen? Goodness,
you must like the fact that many girls have been victims of statutory rape! I
guess you think a girl below sixteen is accountable and mature enough to make
the decision to marry 50 year old men. Disgusting!
"but I also profess a belief that all other people should be allowed to worship
how, where or what they may."Last time I check, when one is
brainwashed from birth its hard to "know" what to believe....
How did we come to accept the government taking children out of homes because we
didn't approve of a people's way of life? What happened to us to think this is
good? Some of you must be pretty sick and twisted in your thinking.This would have been abhorant in Soviet or Fascist states. But here in
Actually, Farm Girl, I've had direct experience with the FLDS, as they bought
and harvested produce on our farm.The girls were clean, modestly
dressed, and though not quite as hard working as the boys, much more hard
working than the girls in my community. The boys were cooperative and
respectful of both their elders and the women. No tatoos, no foul language, no
greed. What our community once was.The real eye opener for us was
that the Mothers were making the important family decisions. We had heard that
it was like Islam and the men made all the decisions. Not so, we heard them
confer with their wives and we watched men going along with the wive's
decisions.When it was time to settle, it was the women who carefully
watched and approved the transaction.The Texas CPS is painting with
a wide brush what is likely to be an isolated incident. Hopefully they have lots
of money to fight all the Pro Bono lawyers coming to Texas to make a name. It
seems to me that Texas is a capital of executions and the cradle of George Bush.
Maybe it needs a check mate.
I am absolutely proud of Texas for doing what the states of Utah and Arizona
haven't had the guts to do -- enforce the law! Keep these kids out of harms way
-- protect these young girls from OLD men!
To Anonymous: Perhaps you're not aware that the Qu'ran allows 4 wives and that
Islam is now larger than Catholicism and headed toward being larger than
Christianity. Your monogamy position is fast becoming minority. Personally, I
find polygamy repugnant, but I can't find any scriptural edict against it in the
Bible which only requires a necessity for a "Bishop" to be the husband of one
wife. For me to forbid other consenting adults to be monogamous is just an
exercise of power by me and my state. Laws are not forever and change with the
culture. We're not God.If there is abuse then prosecute the abusers,
but that is no excuse to persecute an entire community by assuming that they are
all abusers.Iraq turned into a mess because our leaders, in their
ignorance, did not realize there could be no division of religion and state. One
cannot make sucessful war against, or, destroy a culture. Cultures survive
anything. For example, the American Indians have their own culture though the US
attempted to educate it out of their children for a 100 years. The FLDS are no
different. Attempts to destroy that culture will also fail.
I am proud of Texas, hope people will realize the women were treated lik the
muslim and Taliban women. yes here in america, you go Texas
Why oppose plural marriage between consenting adults? What is the danger to
society? If you don't believe in purple sweaters then don't wear them. If you
don't believe in abortion then don't have one. And if you don't want more than
one wife, or don't want to share your husband with another wife, then don't
practice plural marriage. Why should it be illegal?
"A state welfare spokeswoman said Texas officially had taken temporary custody
of 401 children...As of now, they plan to place all 401 children in foster
homes. Meanwhile, law enforcement officials continued to search...for more
minors..."We do believe that there are other children still at the ranch, and if
so, they, too, will be removed...This is about children we believe have been
abused or neglected."This is exactly what the Nazis did to the
children of Polish intellectuals when Germany invaded Poland. The Poles were
deemed unsuitable parents. If you have forgotten the movie, rent and watch
Sophie's Choice.Taking these 401 children away from mothers who are
not physically abusive to them creates profound, long term emotional damage to
the children, which will follow them into adulthood.My heart is
breaking for the children and mothers who will be separated from each other, by
the children being placed in foster homes.As a Polish American, I
cannot watch Sophie's Choice. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect children
to be forcibly ripped from their mothers' arms in America.
What happened to our constitutional rights!!! God help us all!!!
So if someone makes a phone call, the whole community is taken into custody?
Right.We're all concerned about a 50 year-old marrying a 16
year-old? Sure. Why don't they simply arrest the 50 year-old man? And why don't
you, who are LDS, speak out against prior LDS Church leaders who did the same
thing?This is called religious intolerance. And for those of you who
belong to a "cult," as some call Mormonism, and are cheering on the Texas
authorities, you're not too bright. You might be next.There are a
lot of people in this country who'd love to see the LDS Church shut down and its
temple doors opened. I oppose plural marriage and think these people
and their clan are weird, but I also profess a belief that all other people
should be allowed to worship how, where or what they may. And I think what is
happening in this situation is horrible. I'm grateful the people are
cooperating, but am confident this will not end until their church and community
are disbanded.Having multiple partners is okay, as long as you don't
The government can prevent future Eldorados by legalizing polygamous marriage.
There is no legitimate reason for a law prohibiting consenting adults to marry
whomever they please. Legalize it and the LDS can lift its temporary ban that
has resulted in the promulgation of these bizarre mutations of Mormonism such as
the FLDS. Allow consenting adults to marry. Prosecute child molesters and
welfare cheats to the fullest extent of the law. Get real.
401 people detained? On what evidence? An apparently anonymous report?Yes, I'm a Mormon, and no, I don't approve of FLDS practices that are
claimed to be widespread. But more important than my distaste for the FLDS is
the removal of 401 people based on one report. And I don't think we should
minimize the importance of young girls being married against their will - this
is simply wrong. But 400+ people? On one report? Why should 12 year old girls
and older women be hauled away as the police search for a 16 year old? This is
not a precedent that should be set.Then there are the image issues,
hauling away these people on buses marked "First Baptist Church". I realize
that they may not have the resources to get other buses, but they must have
realized how this would make them look - hauling away children from a religious
compound in buses marked of a faith strongly opposed to their own.The Texas police have handled this situation very, very poorly. It's hard to
condemn the practice of marrying off child brides against their will strongly
enough. But we must preserve our rights.
Has anyone noticed that the police are using Baptist church buses to transport
the people from the compound. Are we sure that these people aren't just a bunch
of Baptists wearing badges driving polygamist pseudo- Mormons out of dodge?
Sounds kind of familiar doesn't it?
Carrying away women and children in a Baptist bus smacks of religious
persecution. A legitimate operation would have eliminated any semblence of
tainted motives.As far as the "mothers leaving without coercion" -
that appears to be a sneaky white lie spin. What mother, having the option to go
with her child or lose all contact, would not go???These state CPS
people are as whacky as the FLDS. Most of them are thinking-distorted by their
own abused history and now see abuse everywhere. Too bad we can't send them to
Iraq, where there is a risk for agressive actions.
Gary Moorethank you. lets us, people be used. not only for them. but for
us! we should matter and we will.
Well well. One always hears how mainstream Mormons disapprove of FLDS and
polygamy. The opposite seems to be true on this site. Many of you seem quite
empathetic and supportive of the Texas compound and these people's right to live
the lifestyle they have chosen, i.e. coercing young girls and women into
polygamous marriage, producing children that they cannot support, etc. I
guarantee you the responses to this article would be very different on a
To Karen: Stupid is as stupid does. Learn how to spell! To Mormons: Oh
really. Are you Mormon? Have you spoken with the "mainstream" Mormons or the
rest of the world? Didn't think so. To Concerned Christian: What???? Are you
blind? Did your dog run away and now you think it may be hidden in the Temple?
Give me a break!!!! Tell me why they have to take all of the
children from the compound. Why not take the married men away instead?I've lived in Texas. There may not be too many deep thinkers. I pray for the
children whom I believe are the victims here.
The FLDS are infamous for marrying 14 year old children to 50 year old men. If
this isn't child abuse, I don't know what is. Utah should do the same thing to
protect the children.
If 401 children can be taken from a community in Texas and put in state custody
with nobody being informed of the alleged abuse or neglect that occured, it can
happen to you and your family, in your home, church, school, or community. Think of it this way...If one girl from your child's sunday school
class called CPS and said she was being abused by a male church member we'll
name "Dale"... or at least that's what CPS says happened.So CPS goes in
and can't find the girl but determines there are 18 children who are likely
being abused as well.So, they decide to tear all 401 children from their
homes, church, and known surroundings for "questioning" and "assessments".
Actually, that was a ploy. CPS is now keeping all 4They determine
that "Dale" is actually in Arizona on probation and yet they still don't go
arrest him, but continue to use the search warrant as legal justification to do
whatever the hell they please. Because hey -- everyone hates your church.
After all, some other church members and your church leader did something wrong
so EVERYBODY in your church must be vile and evil.Right?WRONG!!!
To answer some of the comments regarding why the men of the FLDS Church continue
to marry girls in the 14-16 year old range and continue to get themselves in
trouble with the law: seriously folks, that's simple. How many women over the
age of 18 even without a formal education would want to marry a 40-60 year old
man with 25 kids? Once the parents loose control over the woman, she'll begin to
think and act on her own. I know there would be some gals who would choose what
they believed to be a "higher calling" in the culture of polygamy no matter how
old they be. But, the chances for this lifestyle and closed society to continue
would diminish greatly if the woman, err girl, didn't have two or three kids and
was thoroughly expunged of hope for any other life by the time she was 18.
There are a lot more stories to be found on the 'net from people abused by
CPS/DCFS agencies, than there are from abused former polygamists.Accused criminals are protected by constitutional rights. Accused parents in
juvenile court have none. They are not presumed innocent, they are punished
without conviction or even trial, and are given one option: confess and
cooperate, whether you did it or not, or lose the children permanently.An indiscriminate mass round up. 401 children in detention, and still
counting! Hopefully this extreme action will blow up in the face of Texas CPS,
just like it did for Gov. Pyle in 1953, and the problem of rampant child welfare
agency abuse of families across this nation will finally get some meaningful
It is not unusual for the uninformed to equate polygamy with underage marriage.
Just as it is not unusual for the uninformed to equate today's LDS church with
today's polygamists. Have you ever been stereotyped?Does
Catholic priest always equal pedophile?Does Muslim always equal a
terrorist?Does Mormon always scoutleader equal a pedophile?Does
black man always equal a criminal?Does blonde always equal dumb?Does
Hispanic always equal illegal immigrant?Inform yourself from more
than one source, and from more than your nightly news There are tens
of thousands of polygamous families throughout the Western United States. They
live a couple blocks from you. Their children attend school with your children.
They build your houses. They own your local stores. They cheer for your kids'
(and theirs) little league teams. They nurture and protect their children as you
do. They abhor child abuse, sexual abuse, underage marriage and fraud as much
as you do. They aren't on the nightly news because they don't deserve to be. They are criminals in one area only: because they have not left women
and children along a trail of divorce or promiscuity like so many other
ther are GOD, OR GOD's in most common Religions.thay all use GOD there higher
power to sway, or get there point across. IF YOU THINK THAY USE GOD TO ABUSE
THERE FAMILIES MAYBE YOU SHOULD STUDY MORE ABOUT THEM, and not the books that
people who hate them write. We live in America, freedom of Religion. if you
wish there Religion was gon. you just may be wishing away your one right's.
there is abuse every were you go and that is sad. BUT TO TAKE 400 KIDS FROM
THERE FAMILIES IS SOMTHING TO LOOK AT. people! LOOK AT WATS GOING ON. i live in
the United states, Ilove it here because of people that stad up for one another.
treat them like you would treat any other American I know i will even if that
means standing up for them BECOUS WE ARE AMERICANS!!!!
Karen - I'm a Utah Mormon that happens to be very glad my church abandoned
polygamy more than 100 years ago. Please don't confuse us with the FLDS. One
wife is plenty for me.V.C Bennett - I too worry about places
referred to as compounds, including FLDs, Waco, Neo_Nazi, Kennedy, Kerry - Note
both extreme conservative and liberal have areas designated as compounds. The
key is EXTREME.As for whether all of these children should have been
removed, I have a difficult time believing that. As much as I disagree with
their beliefs, I doubt 100% of them are evil. I also disagree with Muslims, but
I doubt 100% of Muslim women and children are abused either. Although I have
read supposedly reputable NEWS articles from major NEWS outlets that would have
me believe that in certain areas. I think taking all of the children was a
reach, and involving another church, critical of their beliefs for
transportation should not have been allowed. I hope for the sake of the Texas
justice sysytem that they truly have their ducks in a row.
Yes to 29ner. Zieg Heil, is spelled Sieg Heil by the way. Ziege means goat. Sieg
means winning.I hope the FLDS people know enough about the law to sue
child protective services. Of course the women leave with the children, the
children don't know anybody else but their moms and taking them away the way
this happened is traumatic. They had better have counselors for them for the
next 30 years. I too think the call was bogus and Texans really jumped the gun
there and should be held accountable for it. Better build them a few more
buildings for screwing up their families like this. Even if Texans don't like
the FLDS church, there are other ways to make sure no abuse is happening than to
destroy families. Time to get some attorneys involved on the FLDS side.
The police officers who invaded the ranch should be charged for violating the
first ammendment. apparently an ammendment has been made to the constitution
allowing the government to prohibit the free exercise of religion!!!!! if it
comes out that any of the women and children were so much as coersed to leave,
then the police should be charged for violating the fifth ammendment, for they
seazed property unlawfully
So much for religious freedom???? What an abuse of justice By the Texas
Authorities... What has happened to our country??? The Police have turned into
Big Brother. Who will be next??? Homeschoolers??? Soccer Moms???
Well, at least now we know why non-Mormons aren't allowed in your temples! Looks
like they do more harm than just ruin the landscapes of the communities they
invade. Goodness only knows what's going on in those buildings and who's being
hidden in there.
For you people who are not appalled what ZOG has done, you need to get your
heads out and wake up. Whether or nor you support the FLDS, it makes no
difference. Is nothing sacred anymore? Baptists are high up there with the rest
of the hate groups. Their churches are nothing more than the philosophies of men
mingled with scripture. The state of Texas is a puppet for ZOG. My storage is
being increased by a large amount.
For those "mainstream" Mormons who view these renegade cultists with
bewilderment and pity for their ridiculous religious beliefs -- the rest of the
world views you with pretty much the same sentiments.
At least the feds didn't kill everyone this time...
If you took 401 random children from any community in the world, and questioned
them about abuse, I suspect you might get a higher response than from these
children. I don't agree with them, but is there cause to believe that
child abuse among FLDS is higher than other Texas communities or religions?Also, I would include being persuaded to be married at 15 as child abuse.If it turns out that the instances of "child abuse", in any form, are much
less than the national average, then Texas is going to get their pants sued
To all of you. if this was (YOU) would you take it? if my children were taken i
would follow them. for those mothers that go with there children thay need all
our soport. in 1953 thay had a Raid. the people of Arizona spoke out.if you want
a book to read find it in your Library. also get on yiur computer and look up
sexoffender in your Town. then ask your self if you would let authorities take
your family. I have the right to ( BARE ARMS ) are we free?
>>! How can one unsubstantiated complaint result in the detention of 401
children from various families?
A question for those of you that are equating this with the actions of the
Nazis; if you really believe what you are saying, why aren't you doing something
about it? Or are you like those in the ghettos that watched it happen to others?
Either you don't really believe it is like what the Nazis did at all, you're
just running your mouths; or you do believe it, but really don't care. Which is
it? Are you going to stand down, or stand up?
No, I watched the press conference. I didn't get my information from a
secondhand newspaper article. They have 'cut off' access to the compound
effectively detaining them. When asked what grounds they had to keep them there
the lady responded "we are seeking a search warrant". They don't have one yet
according to herself. If they have evidence of abuse, how are they
not being arrested? This is just a cover story because they don't like these
people in their state and they don't like what they believe. It is bigoted and
hateful and a violation of these peoples rights.And to "Violent
Abusers" when asked what grounds they had to remove all 401 children they said
"Physical abuse" they never said a word about sexual abuse. Unless they were
just avoiding the word, physical abuse means violent abuse. So yes, they are
taking away these children from their parents on the ground of some nebulous
term of "physical abuse".It should scare the living daylights out of
anyone that we have an organization like CPS that runs above law. They answer to
no one. They do as they please and can take your children without evidence of
>>I don't support the FLDS, but I am concerned with government overreach in this
I too read the book ESCAPED by Jessop. I highly suggest you read the book
before you criticize our law enforcement agency. I am more concerned about the
unfound girl that made the phone call. She may be dead or being severely
punished for her actions. Let's hope we find her!
Now we learn that Texas recently changed the minimum age for marriage from 14 to
16 specifically because of the arrival of FLDS. So, before FLDS settled in
Texas it was legal for a 50 year old man to take a 14 year old as a wife and
start a family. Obviously, Texas decided to persecute FLDS for actually
practicing what others in Texas (especially in the piney woods of East Texas)
had been practicing for decades.Cultures all over the world
practice intergenerational marriage as a perfectly valid strategy of society to
provide stability, food, shelter, and care for families raising children better
than can a pair or inexperienced and unsettled youngsters .It is an
outrage for the state of Texas to rip 401 children away from their social system
for the sheer purpose of imposing a relatively new cultural norm on a group of
people who have lived this way for decades.
ARE MORMANS, AND OTHERS REALY THIS STUPID????? POLIGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW, AND
THEY HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO ABUSE CHILDREN SEXUALLY, AND MENTALY AND YOU PEOPLE SEE
A PROBLEM WITH THEM GETTING THESE CHILDREN OUT?? THEY ARE ALL
BRAINWASHED......IF THEY ARE NOT GUILTY GREAT, BUT THEY NEED TO BE PUNISHED IF
THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW(WHICH THEY ARE)
For those of you who are worried about the over-reaching government interferring
with the FLDS... I suggest to you that these people are captive under the thumb
of something far more sinister.... those who use God as a tool of emotional,
sexual, and economic manipulation. People like this scare the h*** out of
rational, concerned citizens. Any community that is called a
"compound" is problematic... I worry about the children who are denied the
liberation of education and literacy: that knowledge to make up their own minds
about their personal direction... who knows, they may set out and find good,
decent people with whom to procreate, who are NOT their cousins, brothers,
sisters, or fathers and passive-aggressive control freaks.
the reason they are rounding up these people is becuase polygamy is wrong, and
ripe for abuse. Give the law enforcement officers some time and the abuses will
THE AMISH WILL BE THE NEXT!
I know their has been immorality in my ward, and I am willing for us all to be
rounded up to root out the fornicators. It was also fun to read,
across the posse buses, "Baptist Church." Go Texas!
Good job Texas!
Well, the FLDS are gonna wish they hadn't messed with Texas. Shoulda stayed
right here in Utah and Arizona. We may prosecute polygamous men for marrying
underage girls but it has been over 50 years since Arizona raided the polygamous
town of Short Creek and hauled women and children away.
Tough bananas, those of you who like to see adult men married to middle school
aged girls. Stay out of Texas.
Has everyone forgotten that this is the same community that married a 14 year
old girl to a 19 year old guy? Or that whether you agree with it or not,
polygamy IS illegal, and that under the law they could arrest all of the adult?
It's sad to see all this happen, but the law is the law. If you don't like it,
work to change it. They may not be dealing drugs, but they're dealing kids here
folks. Marrying kids who can't even drive. If the story had been about them
marrying another middle schooler to a college aged guy, you'd all be up in arms.
I don't know if this is what's best for the kids, but the alternative certainly
Zeig Heil! --Yeah, what you said. The jews were led away peacefully to their
deaths. Watching this on the news has made me think twice--DFS has just too
much power. As far as I know, young girls do not have access to phones. I
think the call was bogus and the reasons for taking all those children was
bogus. Almost looked like a prelude to another Mountain Meadows Massacre, only
this time, it will be carried out by the Texas Rangers. . . .
I can't believe the heading of the news report "401 children rounded up. Is that
just how it is rounding up those children just like a herd of wiened calves"
Talk about mass abuse. Why couldn't these kids have been interviewed quietly
right there in their own environment?TEXAS the great state. just gotta
keep up with the western way.Do they still round up and abuse the
aborigianl people in Texas? Sounds like The biggest State never grew up.
This is a very heavy handed move by the state of Texas. I think it is uncalled
for! I want to see some justification as to their abuse claims. What a
perposterous situation for these people.
Something doesnt add up here... The original estimates were 300-400 people at
the compound. Theyve now removed some 400 women and children. That doesnt leave
very many men, but even if the population estimate was incorrect and theres
still a couple hundred men there, how is it that a mere handful of men could
build an entire city, complete with a utilities infrastructure, not to mention a
temple as well, and still have any time left for low and filthy habits of sexual
abuse against young girls?
This is a huge abuse of judicial power by a district judge in TX. They are
justifying the detention and separation of dozens of families with arguably
probable cause relating to one/two of the possible inhabitants. The mere
existence of these persons in the compund does not create evidence sufficient to
support probable cause for detention. I hope there is an army of attorneys
willing to stand in the honest defense of these people. I do not agree with
their beliefs, but this screams of habeas corpus, religious discrimination, bad
faith execution of a warrant, abuse of judicial authority, and possibly a litany
of other possible constitutional violations. Absolutely horrendous abuse of the
authorities constitutional discretion. I can hardly believe this is happening
and am incensed at the ramifications of the actions taken. I think those people
with some understanding of the FLDS's beliefs should rise to the defense of this
group of families. I do not condone the abuse of children nor the violation of
law, but this is beyond egregious.
As I read all the comments so far, I am wondering who of any of you have been
given all the facts of this case? I am not in any way condoning anything that
has happened, but I do know that a case like this a DA would have to be very
selective of what they do or say to avoid a lawsuit. It is not uncommon to have
a press confrence like this and not be able to release all the details.
Lets just wait until we hear all the details until we start to complain. I
for one still have faith in our law enforcement and try my best to give them the
benifit of the doubt.
I am fairly certain that if you rounded up 400 children from any middle class
neighborhood in America you would find at least 18 who showed signs of abuse and
neglect, in fact I would bet that the number would be much higher. This whole
situation reeks of a govornmental abuse of power.That being said,
here is the thing that I cannot understand. It is very apparent
from the history and recent prosecution of polygamists that the law either
doesn't care or can't do much if you are JUST practicing polygamy. If that is
the case then why do these men INSIST on continuing to marry girls under the
legal age of consent.Personaly, I think the fact that polygamy is
illegal is a joke, but if you can't wait until your future wife/wives are over
16 or even 18 to marry her then you have earned whatever "Persecution" you
get.See The Book of Mormon, Jacob 2:31-33 It seems ramarkably suited
to this particular situation.
This whole thing was handled terribly. We all know how successful WACO was. I'm
saddened they entered their temple also, I sure hope all this was warrented by
something other than a would-be prank caller. Obviously there have been problems
with abuse in the FLDS church and I'm not defending what has gone on that we
know of, but where was the humanity in this? Wouldn't it have been better to
address the isolated incident than tearing everybody out and then try to find
the needle in the haystack while the pressure to not tell is huge when EVERYBODY
Too bad our own attorney general doesn't have the guts to give the children here
in Utah the same protection.
If a search warrant is served on your house, you will not be allowed to leave
while that is going on. The men will be allowed to leave once the search is
complete. Split emotions, you also missed the point that the women have gone
with these children voluntarily and are free to leave at any time. The only
ones taken under the court order were the children.
In answer to your first question, NO.In answer to your second question. No
abusers have been arrested, you're making things up.In answer to your
third question. YES"I know I certainly wouldn't" True, you open
mouth and blaze away, don't you? I got my information by reading the
local newspaper, several of them from different reporters. I discounted that
which was non-repeatable and didn't try to read more into it than was there. You
should do the same.Texas DPS, the best there are.
The very fact that this DOES concern the FLDS and the Fundamentalist Mormons,
means that ANY child's complaint must be taken seriously.The Texans
down here don't take kindly to child abuse....and this will expose the Mormon
Fundamentalists for exactly what they are.
I haven't seen any reports that describe the abuse as violent.Sexual
abuse doesn't have to be violent in order to be abuse. The victims may show no
outward signs of abuse or may even appear to be unresisting participants. That
doesn't prove the victims haven't been abused.There have been way
too many eye-witness accounts from underaged victims of these arranged marriages
for authorities to simply turn a blind eye when a complaint has been registered.
Given the very strict control of the youth within the FLDS
community, any instance of a young pregnant girl must be investigated by
authorities to determine whether the circumstances involve sexual abuse.If the girl's parents are complicit in allowing an arranged marriage for
their underage daughter to occur, who else does the girl have to turn to for
help but the state?
It reminds me of the mothers, children, and old men being led away to the
concentration camps in Nazi Germany. Where is the justice?
You know, for the most part, I dislike FLDS and others like them, and I wouldn't
generally defend them, but I'm with the others that say this could really be
very serious. When the dust settles, there had better be some REALLY good
answers and reasoning behind all of what these officials are doing, or else I am
going to be one of the folks who sees to it that heads roll and things are made
I have recently finished Carolyn Jessop's memoir titled ESCAPE. I heartily
recommend it to anyone who thinks that religious rights have been violated.Human rights of women, their children and men who are judged "unworthy" by the
FLDS hierarchy are the real issue here! I was shocked at the depth and extent of
the brainwashing this cult has perpetrated against its members. This case is
much more complex than is being represented in the news reports.
I am absolutely appalled at the lack of indignation and uproar from the
public for Protective Services of Texas, acting on an obviously anonymous
complaint, going in and detaining a whole town! How can one unsubstantiated
complaint result in the detention of 401 children from various families? How can
this be tolerated? Where is the American Civil Liberties Union and their
attorneys, or are they truly as misnamed as we have all heard? How does that
saying go? They came for the Fundamentalists, but I was not one, so I held my
peace. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not Jewish, so I did nothing. And
then they came for me. It also concerns me that one bus I saw hauling off the
people of this community said First Baptist Church. After seeing the level of
Bigotry they are capable of, and their contemptuous disdain for other religions,
some even calling the Catholic Church a "Cult", it is difficult to believe this
is not religious persecution. Our constitution is supposed to protect us from
this kind of government procedures. However, if we all remain silent, there will
be no protection for any of us!
THEY HAVE NOT FOUND THE SIXTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL? what if there was not even a
phone call! what if this is just a reasen to see inside the Ranch? I just hope
people stand up. people in the united states. this Question's all of our
Given the long history these communes have had for child abuse, I can see the
concern about abuse in this case. But is it truly necessary to gather up over
200 women - many adults - in such a case? Where does this search warrant end?
I don't support the FLDS, but I am concerned with government overreach in this
Sad that only one reporter was really demanding answers from those two stooges
at the press conference. He was the only one pointing out the travesty of
justice that this situation is. 401 children were all abused?!!The
fathers are being confined without warrant or arrest, the children have been
taken without merit. And most troubling was there was absolutely no transparency
from the two at the press conference. We the people demand answers and all we
got was, "I can't disclose that information at this time."How is it
that the fathers that are supposed to be these violent abusers of children
showed virtually no resistance to their children being ripped from their arms?
Isn't abuse about control? I applaud those fathers for keeping their cool, I
know I certainly wouldn't.
Watching mothers and children being led away by law enforcement reminds me of
one thing: the gestapo in Nazi Germany.
This is starting to look more and more like a travesty of justice.Why are they taking every single child away?They still haven't
produced the complaining witness. This is just a misuse of power, pure and
They have no guns or weapons, and they are cooperating well with
authorities...this doesn't sound like criminals to me. The pictures that I have
seen show some bright and healthy children, nothing indicating abuse in any way.