@Utah Girls:On the phone with parents until 8 p.m.? At school
Saturday's and Sundays? In other words, no life outside of school. That
actually makes a poor teacher. It is not wise to work 24/7 in any profession
outside of parenthood. The ability to be a good teacher has largely been
squashed by the ridiculous testing requirements and by districts who micromanage
every bit of the curriculum.
What makes a great teacher? It's many things, of course.Asked
a different way, how many (potentially) great teachers have either quit early in
their careers, or steered away from that career path in college, based on the
widespread opinion of other college students that teaching is a bad career
choice?Kudos to the teachers who win awards for being great
teachers.And shame on the Legislature - and the voters who keep
voting them into power - for creating a situation where these teachers stand out
so much. The great teachers that win these awards should not be so
unusual. We need to aspire to the point where this level of teacher is just
above average. It will take a generation of focus and commitment to get there.
Husker-My sister is a teacher in alpine. Yes, 180 days of paid sick
leave. I stand corrected in the insurance. They didn't have to pay a few
years ago but now it is 221$ a month for a family with a 500 dollar deductible.
Not touchable by the private sector.
@2bits. Reread my comment. I said my statement was about the overall comments
that have been made on stories about the teacher storage. Not this specific
article.You know this is not the first story ran by the dnews on
this topic. Most of the commenters on this topic overall have not been in the
favor of teachers.
@Shaun@2bits "Nobody has said teachers are over paid. If you can find
one comment saying that please let us know."It is a general
common theme from most commenters on the teacher shortage and the stories about
their pay"...---If it's a generally common them from
most coments on this topic.... why can't you find even one comment from
this thread saying that to prove it?Because we're not saying
that. It's not a common theme in most comments here. It's your
assumption about what others think.If "Most" are saying
that... you would think you could find even one comment saying "teachers are
overpaid".Problem is... nobody's saying that. You just
ASSUME they would say that.It's called a strawman. Say people
are saying something that's just plain not true so you can attack it.
Nobody's saying teachers are over-paid.If they are... show us.
I don't see anybody here saying that.Anybody who actually says
teachers are overpaid... is crazy (IMO).
@2bits "Nobody has said teachers are over paid. If you can find one comment
saying that please let us know."It is a general common theme
from most commenters on the teacher shortage and the stories about their pay. I
was never insinuating that it was the general consensus from this specific
articles comments. Also to be completely clear it doesn't
matter if anyone here thinks teachers have it made, have it good enough because
of the summers or are paid enough. What matters is what is happening in the
marketplace. You or anyone else might think 50k, 60k, 30k, 80k or whatever is
great or sufficient, but what matters is can the state find teachers and keep
them and the answer seems to be no.Are there other things that could
entice teachers to stay or join the profession? Sure but it doesn't seem
like we as taxpayers and the state are willing to entertain any of those ideas.
I can find some common characteristics between all of my favorite teachers from
high school:1. I had to work. I had to study for tests, do homework, and
demonstrate my capacity to think for myself. It was clear that I was responsible
for my own success.2. The teacher demonstrated passion for the subject.
One of my least favorite teachers demonstrated on nearly a daily basis her
incompetence in the subject and her lack of desire to be a teacher.3. The
teacher could explain a subject clearly and simply and involved the students.
This meant we helped solve problems in my math and science classes, answered
questions and participated in discussions in history classes, and were given
opportunities to ask questions and provide our own perspective during English
@Mick "Teachers don't pay anything (or maybe 25 dollarsa month) for
very good health insurance. The get 180 days of paid sick leave."Are you sure about these benefits? In Provo School District, monthly health
care is several hundred dollars a month with an enormous deductible and they get
15 paid sick days a year (which includes all doctor and dentist visits).How does Alpine give 180 days of paid sick leave when there are only 180
It is very hard to objectively determine what makes a good teacher. But in one
study, the principal and another member of the staff in several different
schools were asked to rank the effectiveness of teachers in their school based
upon their own subjective opinion without discussing it with each other or other
teachers. The results were correlated and in every school in the study, there
was a strong positive correlation with almost total agreement in the top and
bottom 10%. Teacher unions hate this kind of research but think of how education
could be improved if we could find some way of eliminating that bottom 10% of
teachers. And I think parents and taxpayers would be more inclined to want to
pay teachers more if they felt that the money wasn't being wasted on
I had five superb teachers in high school. Within three years after
my graduation every one of them had left and were all thriving in the private
sector. One became one of the top music lawyers in the nation.
Another became a well-paid consultant. Another started his own public opinion
research company and made a fortune. Another started a corporate training
company and retired a multi-millionaire.Why didn't they stay in
teaching? Should we create a legislative task force to look into it?
@air Flower RE: "There is NO way a new teacher makes anywhere
$44,514-$58,874 per year!"...---Average entry level Teacher in
Utah gets $30,100 (Source Salt Lake Tribune)That's State average,
your district may be above or below thatGo to the website. This is
statistics. It's like baby weights and national test scores. Your weight
or score grouped into percentiles and the average for that percentile displayed
for reference.Look at the graph. It gives several numbers along
the curve.Bottom 10% AVG = $38,616. Means some in this group
(10th percentile) earn less than $38,616 (First year teachers etc). Some in
that percentile earn more than that numberBottom 25% = $44,51450% = $50,99275 percentile ave is $58,874The
90th percentile (highest paid teachers in Sandy) averages $66,051===RE: "I finally made about that after 25 years and a lot of
education"...---That would make sense. The 50th percentile
average 25 years ago would have been much lower. And you would have been in one
of the lower percentiles 25 years ago (as an entry level teacher).===Agreed teachers work hard. And their pay is low. But not
I have a daughter who was a teacher and I know that teaching is the most
difficult of all professions. Twenty (or more) sets of eyes on you all day, with
few breaks; each child is different, with different needs; each parent considers
his or her child the most important in the class. Almost every year, state
offices and school districts burden teachers with new programs for improvement,
without carefully considering whether every teacher needs every new program. In
the end, only those with outside resources and support carry on with confidence.
The main complaint on this thread seems to be about pay. I agree that some
teachers should be paid more. Here are some suggestions.Year round
school. This will decrease class size and allow you to tech year round and not
have to worry about a second summer job.Teachers need to give up
some benefits. Currently in alpine school district teachers get benefits that
the private sector cannot touch. Teachers don't pay anything (or maybe 25
dollarsa month) for very good health insurance. The get 180 days of paid sick
leave. The can retire at 60% of their salary. The cost of these benefits is
astronomical. And I know that there have been negotiations that have decreased
some of these benefits for newer teachers, but still untouchable by the private
sector.So teachers can decide. More money? Or better benefits?
2 bits - Cottonwood Heights, UT: There is NO way that a new teacher makes
anywhere $44,514-$58,874 per year! (You can go to any district's web page
and find out how much teachers are paid.) I finally made about that after 25
years and a lot of education. I put in A LOT of extra time into my teaching, but
I don't have any children. Calling parents at 8 p.m. Doesn't the
teacher have a right to a life with her/his family? Lower the amount of students
in a room and then, it might be realistic.
Newly certified teachers come out of the colleges and universities with passion
and a desire to be a good teacher. However, it takes only about 3 to 5 years
for the educational system to burn that out of them. Some quit
because they are unable to manage the classroom. This can be because of their
presentation of the curriculum, poor classroom control, lack of parental and
administration support, or because many of the women quit to raise a family.Others with passion, drive, and skill quit education because they find
that these traits are highly valued outside of education where the wages and
opportunities are much higher. In my opinion teachers are not
highly valued in our society. Teachers get lip service, but that is about it.
What makes a good teacher? How about: what makes a good doctor, lawyer,
lobbyist, real estate agent, plumber, etc.?Bankers destroyed the
world economy, yet we never see articles on what would make a good accountant.
Politicians and writers ponder on the merits of a good teacher, as though they
were the hardest things to find. They ask themselves the wrong questions.There are several teachers in my family. All all of them, all, have
left states where they were treated poorly for better pay, better working
conditions, and greater autonomy; to be treated more like professionals than as
untrustworthy drudges. Unlike many of the other professions that I
mentioned, most people go into teaching because they want to do something with
their lives that makes a difference. People who choose money as their
life's goal don't seem to be able to understand that. No
teacher expects to become rich. A decent, comfortable salary, with good
benefits, that's what makes good teachers easier to find, so that they can
do their jobs without looking over their shoulders at the near-poverty that
currently haunts most of them.
To be a good teacher it's important that you aren't constantly worried
about money.When finances are a constant worry... it's hard to
focus and be a good teacher (or parent, or anything else for that matter).We should pay teachers enough that if they live conservatively they
don't have to worry about money.What is that amount? I
don't know. Good topic for discussion.===@Shaun,RE: "constant criticism of how they are failing children and
are overpaid"...---Nobody has said teachers are over paid. If
you can find one comment saying that please let us know.I don't
think they are overpaid. But it's not as bad as some pretend also.Google "Public School Teacher Salaries in Utah and by education,
experience"...Salary dot com is a service where you can see what
any profession (including public school teachers) are paid in your area. Just
pick your city and they will show you the range.Salary dot com:"The median annual Public School Teacher salary in Sandy, UT is $50,992,
as of February 22, 2017, with a range between $44,514-$58,874 not including
bonus and benefits"...Obviously they are not over paid. But
could you find a way to live on $50K? Many Utahns do.
The conclusion of the article is 100% correct. The huge majority of teachers I
know already have tremendous passion for their students, yet they are not
compensated for the extraordinary work they do to help kids succeed.When I was a high school student (early '80s), my success in the
classroom was determined mostly by my willingness to go to class and work hard
(or not). The teacher did not get the blame if I failed. Now it seems like the
teacher bears 90% of the responsibility and the student/parent only 10%.
Teachers work hundreds of extra hours each year to individualize and improve
their instruction, all while being micromanaged by their superiors. Teachers
deserve more respect and appreciation, especially in Utah.
By the Utah legislature standard, I would say someone who works for cheap and
doesn't complain about them meddling with education constantly. Another requirement is for teachers to take constant criticism of how they are
failing children and are overpaid even if they do work for cheap.
There is no one way to be a good teacher. Teachers are good in many different
ways, and the attempt to standardize "good teaching" is as misguided as
standardized testing of students. Only when we recognize that education is not a
mass-production manufacturing process can we properly assess and promote the
varieties of good teaching.
I would suggest that the DN look at the Five Core Propositions of the National
Board for Professional Teaching Standards. Passion is certainly a quality which
is admired but to boil successful teaching down to this one trait is demeaning
and lacks the recognition that teaching is complex. Sadly, until there is an
understanding and respect for what we do, we will continue to lose educators.
This article just added to the problem.
Good teachers never let 'em see you sweat. That's a skill that takes a
long time to master. They handle discipline problems without getting the office
involved. They're on the phone with parents until 8 PM in the evenings and
sometimes later than that. They're at school on Saturday or Sunday making
sure everything is ready for Monday. They realize standardized testing is a bad
joke but they never let their students know this. They reflect on lesson plans
that might not have been as successful as expected and they fix them. They
realize the importance of critical-thinking skills and using Socratic
questioning methods to develop thoughtful discussions. They understand kids are
capable of greatness and that "teaching to the middle" is a disservice
to everyone. They see things that are about to happen before they happen and
they make sure it doesn't happen. They know being a teacher isn't
always a popularity contest.