In our opinion: College campuses should practice more civility

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  • Ranch Here, UT
    March 23, 2017 10:24 a.m.

    RG says:

    "...inasmuch as conservatives are taught to use logic and reason..."

    --- Where? From most conservative comments on these threads that is certainly not apparent.

  • RedShirtHarvard Cambridge, MA
    March 22, 2017 3:39 p.m.

    To "Frozen Fractals" I don't know what dimension you come from, but here in this reality, the KKK was a branch of the Democrat party. In fact they had a Clansman in office until 2010.

    The ideologies that you list are not dependent on political ideology. The KKK is against limited government. They, like DEMOCRATS want more government.

    Nice try, but you are wrong.

  • Jayson Meline Chubbuck, ID
    March 22, 2017 1:17 p.m.

    The root cause of current incivility and intolerance begins with the culture of entitlement and the falsehood of political correctness. Political correctness is a societal masquerade and a disingenuous charade of civility and acceptance of differences.

    Being “PC” veils dishonesty and is a conscious denial of reality as opposed to sincerity born of heartfelt tolerance and civility without compromising the truth or being in denial of reality or facts. The PC movement within the culture of entitlement gives rise to the narrowing of the mind rather than the opening of the mind and heart.

    The ivory tower mentality and the nefarious nature of our litigious society have combined to achieve the direct opposite of their purported aim: greater free speech, tolerance, and civility.

    Conservatives and liberals or members of political parties by their very nature are neither civil nor tolerant. They are not open to the free exchange of ideas; but rather imposing their agenda on everyone else and suppressing freedom.

    Recent campus protests and tantrums at town hall meetings are simply outward symptoms of the greater illness that afflicts our culture.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    March 21, 2017 5:47 p.m.

    @RedShirt
    "FYI the Klu Klux Klan was founded by DEMOCRATS and NEVER has been RIGHT WING."

    That's just false. The Dixiecrats split off the Dems after the Civil Rights Act and Nixon scooped them up. Even Reagan made his first post-convention campaign stop at a county fair in Mississippi in a play to supporters of George Wallace.

    "If you bothered to look into the KKK ideologies, they are LEFT WING."

    What I do know is they're quite anti-immigrant, hate Muslims, aren't very fond of gay people, certainly can't be confused with feminists, and oh yeah, they're racist. Maybe they support universal healthcare and infrastructure spending... but on the things we typically associate with the KKK in a negative context... those are far right-wing.

  • RedShirtHarvard Cambridge, MA
    March 21, 2017 3:57 p.m.

    To "1aggie " actually, since the passage of the civil rights act, your ilk claims the KKK is right wing. If you bothered to look into the KKK ideologies, they are LEFT WING.

    You are reading a lot into what I stated. I stated that the LEFT claims to be tolerant. I didn't say that you claim the left to be tolerant. That is what the leading figures of the left wing and especially the Democrat Party claim. The irony is that those on the left are the least tolerant, and that has been proven in various studies.

    Do you deny science that has proven the left to be intolerant?

    Do you want to be associated with an intolerant ideology?

    Actually, it was Berkley's fault that the Alt-Left was able to get onto their campus, and were able to do the damage that they did. You do realize that at Berkley there are many PROFESSORS and ADMINISTRATORS that condone and sanction the actions of the alt-left. They have raised the Alt-Left, now the Alt-Left has come home to roost.

    You really ought to read my questions again, and actually answer the question, rather than trying to detract with tangents designed to distract from the sins of the LEFT.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    March 21, 2017 12:53 p.m.

    RedShirt
    Please point out where I condoned or supported violence or riots.

    "1. If the LEFT that you identify with, claim to be tolerant of all ideas, why to they keep rioting and protesting anybody with a different point of view?

    Where did I claim "the left" claims to be tolerant of all ideas? I acknowledged there are left-wing extremists as there are right-winged extremists. I did state that UC Berkeley
    (the institution) has a well-established record of defending free speech which is true, hence inviting Milo to speak in the first place. It was not UC Berkeley's fault that people came from outside the campus and engaged in rioting and looting.

    2. Do you really want to be identified with people that can't handle an opposing point of view?"
    Define, "can't handle." I've never, ever supported violence, looting etc.

    I noticed you haven't distanced yourself from right-winged extremists McVeigh, Adkisson, Eric Rudolph etc.

    "FYI the Klu Klux Klan was founded by DEMOCRATS and NEVER has been RIGHT WING."

    Perhaps, until passage of the Civil Rights Act. Since then Klan groups are more often affiliated with right-winged extremist groups.

  • Rikitikitavi Cardston, Alberta
    March 21, 2017 8:41 a.m.

    Shoutdown does not belong in public forum or town hall venue/gatherings etc.
    Civility must prevail. Signs are mostly civil, voices need to be calm.

    Physical violence or threat of same is NEVER
    acceptable.

    Damage to property is NEVER acceptable.

    The current generation of spoiled, brainwashed students enrolled in liberal arts post secondary institutions are totally out of touch with the concept of freedom of speech.

    Hiding your face when committing felonies is juvenile, childlike to say the least.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    March 20, 2017 11:36 p.m.

    Free speech is not tolerated on college campuses. This is a close minded left wing threatening environment unless you attend BYU or Liberty University .

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    March 20, 2017 1:53 p.m.

    To "1aggie" since you are so young, you probably didn't notice the difference. When CPAC disinvited Milo there were NO RIOTS. How many riots have been right wing inspired? How many protests have been as ugly as what your ilk constantly promotes?

    You and your ilk cheer on the ALT LEFT in their tactics of riots and rampage.

    FYI the Klu Klux Klan was founded by DEMOCRATS and NEVER has been RIGHT WING.

    But that is just a tangent. You failed to address the questions I asked you directly. Can you answer them yet?

    1. If the LEFT that you identify with, claim to be tolerant of all ideas, why to they keep rioting and protesting anybody with a different point of view?

    2. Do you really want to be identified with people that can't handle an opposing point of view?"

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    March 20, 2017 1:35 p.m.

    @Redshirt...... you are right.... she choose to do the right thing and take in a child that wasn't being cared for by another relative. I am not really sure what your point is. Are you saying as a society, we should praise those who have "high IQs" and use those only to serve themselves, or as a society those who sacrifice to help others out. I am not really sure though it had anything to do with their IQ, but their morals.

    We all make judgements what we will sacrifice for success. But we all don't have the same opportunities - and that has nothing to do with IQ.

    Peoples success is largely not how high their IQ is, but a lot of time how much they are willing to sacrifice for that success. Sometimes those successes are worth it. Sometimes those sacrifices are placed on others shoulders.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    March 20, 2017 1:29 p.m.

    @Redshirt
    "If the LEFT that you identify with, claim to be tolerant of all ideas, why to they keep rioting and protesting anybody with a different point of view? Do you really want to be identified with people that can't handle an opposing point of view?"

    You seem to be saying that I and anybody left of center identifies and/or support/condones tactics of left wing extremist groups simply because they are left of center. Then, using your logic, the same broad brush could be used to paint those right of center as supporting the actions of people such as Timothy McVeigh, James Adkisson, Klu Klux Klan etc and other extremists on the right. (Newsweek also had an article on right-winged extremism).

    But, I'll refrain from applying the broad bush because I understand extremism exists on both sides but is not indicative of the majority.

    Btw, CPAC (Conservative Political Action Conference) escaped criticism for disinviting Milo, while Trump suggested UCBerkeley funding should be questioned).

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    March 20, 2017 11:55 a.m.

    TMR:
    I agree that the Sons of Liberty, who made up the majority of the rioters in the BTP, were definitely not civil (as I stated in my post). I also agree that many of the leaders of the revolution not only bemoaned their actions in the BTP, but their actions in general as being "rash and without discipline".

    So my point was not to say that the young fellas in the Sons of Liberty were any more civil or had any more decorum than today's youth on campuses, it was to suggest that their cause was for freedom from a foreign, dictatorial nation who sought to diminish their rights. In contrast, the youth spoken of in this OpEd seek to belittle and stamp out speech contrary to their world view. This makes their cause less noble because any violence toward, shaming of, or drowning out of free speech is offensive to the Constitution, and therefore offensive to OUR nation and to those who have fought, and continue to fight for it's efficacy.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    March 20, 2017 11:25 a.m.

    To "airnaut" so you refuse to answer the question, and go for the tangent and personal attack. Your "tolerance" is showing.

    This has nothing to do with Trump. If you want to talk about unfaithful marriage, destruction of family, and so forth, your gal Hillary is EQUAL TO TRUMP. If you want to talk destruction of the Constitution, you should do some self evaluation and consider the fact that Trump is only doing what your ilk allowed under Obama.

    So again, tell us which is a noble cause. Protesting against wars, protesting to ensure equal rights, or protesting because you don't want to hear an opposing view on a topic.

    Let me repeat that, tell us which is a noble cause. Protesting against wars, protesting to ensure equal rights, or protesting because you don't want to hear an opposing view on a topic.

    How about a third time, tell us which is a noble cause. Protesting against wars, protesting to ensure equal rights, or protesting because you don't want to hear an opposing view on a topic.

    Can you do that, or are you going to try to distract again?

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    March 20, 2017 11:07 a.m.

    @RedShirt - USS Enterprise, UT
    March 20, 2017 9:20 a.m.

    To "airnaut" tell us which is a noble cause. Protesting against wars, protesting to ensure equal rights, or protesting because you don't want to hear an opposing view on a topic.

    =========

    Donald Trump is a proven adulterer, fraud and pathological liar who is trampling our sacred Constitution.

    Are YOU willing to man up and enlist in his wars, or send you kids or grand kids into one?

  • TMR Los Angeles, CA
    March 20, 2017 10:58 a.m.

    Cougsndawgs: You are correct, I should not have compared the motives of the Boston Tea Party to today's youth. In doing so, I slight these young people. Your description of the motives of the tea party protestors is far too generous. The BTP saga was not about free speech, but was instead instigated by the British government's bailout of a corporation - the East India Company - deemed too big to fail. Many of the early Patriots, including George Washington, decried the BTP's destruction of property. It was only decades later that the BTP found itself shrouded in iconic mythology. Now, about today's young people: have you personally met a single young person who has protested Trump and the ideas of the far right? I have and I suggest that in most - although not in all - cases, their motives are more honorable than many of the protestors in the BTP. So, you are correct, the comparison was a slight and I apologize.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    March 20, 2017 9:20 a.m.

    To "UtahBlueDevil" from what you say, that lady you know that doesn't earn much (she wasn't held back) is suffering from the results of her own decisions. As you say, a high IQ does not equate to higher earnings. She made choices early in her life that have limited her earning potential. I feel bad that she limited herself like she did, but that that doesn't mean she is would be justified in protesting an opposing point of view.

    To "1aggie" look beyond the headline for the Berkley Riots. Look at who instigated the riots. According to Newsweek and other sources, the riots were instigated by LEFT WING groups. If the LEFT that you identify with, claim to be tolerant of all ideas, why to they keep rioting and protesting anybody with a different point of view? Do you really want to be identified with people that can't handle an opposing point of view?

    To "airnaut" tell us which is a noble cause. Protesting against wars, protesting to ensure equal rights, or protesting because you don't want to hear an opposing view on a topic.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    March 20, 2017 9:04 a.m.

    Good Grief.
    Like the Vietnam War protests in the 60's and 70's did nothing?
    or
    Tiananmen Square?

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    March 20, 2017 8:30 a.m.

    "The city of Berkeley, for example, is still reeling from the riots that preceded the canceled University of California, Berkeley,"

    First and foremost there is no evidence to date that UC Berkeley students were involved in rioting or looting. The students had actually planned a dance coinciding with Milo's appearance. It is believed the rioters and looters were part of an outside group which have appeared at other events around the country. UC Berkeley, unlike many institutions, has a solid record of supporting freedom of speech.

    (Peaceful protests are also an exercise of freedom of speech).

  • Hockey Fan Miles City, MT
    March 20, 2017 8:02 a.m.

    Intolerance and civility are mutually exclusive. There is an abundance of intolerance of other people's viewpoints; hence, there is a proportionate abundance of incivility in how people respond to other viewpoints.

    President Obama was a strong advocate of embracing what he termed a "robust exchange of ideas." Especially at institutions of higher education, he believed people should be able to express their viewpoints and be challenged by other viewpoints. Robust exchanges can take place in a civil manner. It is possible to disagree, even vehemently, without being disagreeable.

    Unfortunately, the intolerance that exists across the spectrum of ideologies makes civil discourse and dialog an unrealistic dream.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    March 20, 2017 7:15 a.m.

    Probably one of the things higher education can do is teach people how to come together in dialog - to disagree - but how to resolve those disagreements. What the visiting lecture represented was that people success had to do with their IQ, that their social economic uprearing had little to do with these people opportunity and access to success. It is reasonable to understand how that proposition was offensive to some.

    I know of one lady who is very intelligent, but whose personal success has absolutely been held back by family history, and the fact that she choose to raise he siblings child - when he wasn't able to. She is very bright. She is a hard worker. But every penny she earns goes out the door for survival. She works 2 to 3 jobs. This isn't about lack of IQ - but circumstances that determine her ability to pursue opportunities.

    The lectures proposition is an insult to people like her. She would have every justification to protesting this person. The universities just need to provide a positive forum to counter protest the lectures beleifs.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    March 20, 2017 7:00 a.m.

    To "GingerMarshall" just look at your list of major protest movements. College campuses have gone from protesting to protect equal rights, to protesting wars, to what we have now. The current group of college kids are protesting opposing views. It is sad when college age kids can't handle having somebody present a viewpoint that is different than their own.

  • Uteofferouus Salt Lake City, UT
    March 19, 2017 10:41 p.m.

    Surf is Up - you nailed it with your accurate and thoughtful comment. Many of us fear for the future because of how many citizens have stood still and allowed these insidious notions to flourish is our once great country.

  • Justiciaparatodos Salt Lake City, UT
    March 19, 2017 10:36 p.m.

    The uncivilized type of behavior exhibited by these extremist protestors is what got Donald Trump elected. Many of us conservatives view this behavior as a threat to freedom of expression. Worse, we view this as bullying behavior designed to extinguish any voice of opposition to their "one-mind" philosophy. Not only was the behavior boorish and offensive but it turns many of us to a defensive posture where we are less likely to listen to or tolerate the leftist's point of view. We want diversity of thought and expression and if some of it is offensive to us we can just tolerate it like adults - what we won't tolerate is the shutting down of diversity of thought and the silencing through intimidation of our freedom of expression. Mr. Murray has just as much right to express his ideas as they do theirs.

  • toosmartforyou Kaysville, UT
    March 19, 2017 10:07 p.m.

    "There are, of course, instances in which demonstrations are justified as an expression of civil discontent."

    And, pray tell, what are those instances? Is it during a congressional town hall meeting where if you don't agree with what is being said you shout down the speaker? The decorum exhibited since Trump was elected is truly one of selfishness, tantrum imitating, and unworthy of intelligent human beings. It is reactionary, belittling, mocking and generally a rejection not only of ideas but particularly of those that might think differently, expressed in an elitist manner. I witnessed that first hand during the Legacy Highway hearings.

    To ask colleges for civility is like asking a leopard to change his spots, although there was one exception when Michael Moore came to speak at UVU. He was treated with respect even though most found his message to be fairy tales.

    The liberals, especially Hillary and Obama, who lectured Trump and the rest of the country about accepting the results of the election need to look themselves in the mirror. The newspaper has photos of some of these folks; I am certain they consider themselves patriots but they are only troublemakers.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    March 19, 2017 9:47 p.m.

    TMR:
    Are you really comparing the Boston Tea Party to incivility on college campuses...to hold such campus incivility somehow in a positive light? The Boston Tea Party was done in contempt of, and as a message against a foreign nation's taxation of shipping without any legal reciprocity through representation in British Parliament.

    No, the Sons of Liberty were certainly not civil, but their riots were against unfair laws and practices by a nation exercising dominion over us, not against ideas that were counter to their own. They didn't have the right to speak ill against King George, but fought the Revolution to give us the right to question, make fun of, and even mock our civic leaders...they fought for the right of all people to voice their opinion in the public square. Their's was not a mission of squelching ideas but allowing all ideas to be heard without reciprocity from any monarchy or government. To compare them to the tantrums and rioting of today's youth is disingenuous at worst and naive at best.

  • geekusprimus Little Elm, TX
    March 19, 2017 7:57 p.m.

    BYU has, on multiple occasions, invited forum speakers whose political views and personal feelings are at odds with those expressed by a majority of BYU students. A few months ago, a forum speaker came that strongly emphasized and expressed support of things like affirmative action (a subject that most BYU students are politically opposed to). Her talk was very heavily influenced by her more liberal political views. There were no riots. There were no protests. Any disagreements expressed were done politely and properly. Before that, they invited the former White House press secretary for George W. Bush. He expressed his own conservative political feelings throughout his speech. The liberal students (and, although they are far fewer in number, they are present at BYU, contrary to popular belief) took no issue with his presence on campus, did not protest or incite riots, and any possible disagreements expressed were done so civilly and respectfully.

    Clearly, civil discourse regarding differing opinions can and should be exercised. May all the Berkeleys and Middleburys of the world learn this message.

  • TMR Los Angeles, CA
    March 19, 2017 4:15 p.m.

    As a professor in a major west coast university, I can attest to the civility of great majority of the students, even when confronted by offensive speech. As an American, I am also cognizant that incivility, on occasion, has marked this country in positive ways. Would anyone, for example, describe the Boston Tea Party as being civil?

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    March 19, 2017 4:09 p.m.

    GingerMarshall,

    So it's OK for people to riot, use violence, threaten other's safety and shout down speakers -- as long as those who are engaging in that behavior happen to agree with you?

    Liberals were all for freedom of speech during the 1960s when they were protesting against the draft and the Vietnam War (I was around during that time period to see it.) The name Mario Savio (leader of the Free Speech movement at U.C. Berkeley) may "ring a bell" for some of us.

    Meanwhile, it is interesting how the commitment that liberals once had to freedom of speech seems to have mysteriously disappeared when people started disagreeing with them (on issues like abortion or same sex marriage, for example),

  • screenname Salt Lake City, UT
    March 19, 2017 3:56 p.m.

    Just to be clear, GingerMarshall, you are advocating physical violence and riots in order to protest people who think differently from you?

  • fani wj, UT
    March 19, 2017 3:25 p.m.

    These bad behaviors are supported and encouraged by far left groups because they know they can't win in debate of ideas - shouting down those you disagree with only come from the lefties.

  • RG Buena Vista, VA
    March 19, 2017 2:24 p.m.

    While maybe it is getting worse lately, especially with these two incidents, college students have shouted down speakers for years, or tried to prevent the speech from even happening. All the cases I've heard about have been liberal students trying to prevent conservative speeches from happening. (Likewise the antiTrump protests on inauguration day were sometimes violent/destructive, whereas no similar riots occurred when Obama was inaugurated.) Perhaps there have been some examples of the opposite happening, but if so I have not heard about them. And they seem less likely, inasmuch as conservatives are taught to use logic and reason, not emotion, and to act civilly. I live near (about 40 miles away) Liberty University (private Christian institution, organized by Jerry Falwell, and leans strongly conservative) which, to their credit, invites various speakers of differing viewpoints, and the students are always civil, no matter if they agree or disagree.

  • Surf is Up Miami, FL
    March 19, 2017 12:12 p.m.

    Seriously, what do you expect?

    In a society where it is frowned upon or rendered illegal, for parents to discipline their children with a sometimes heavy hand?

    Where children come to expect a participation trophy in everything they do? Where they are continually taught that everyone wins and nobody really loses, and therefore don't know how to handle losing?

    When behaving badly is encouraged when it is against perceived injustice and lawlessness is not met with recompense by those who are supposedly "grown ups"?

    And perhaps most insidious of all-- when impressionable minds are indoctrinated by those who are supposed to be educating them without an agenda-- sometimes holding acceptable grades above their heads if the won't comply or regurgitate the tenets demanded by their professors?

    All of what is happening was ordered by its self. I weep for the future.

    I weep for my children whom I love with all my heart, and sometimes do so with a heavy hand for their sakes.

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    March 19, 2017 10:53 a.m.

    In the 50s and early 60s college students protested segregation, acting as Freedom Riders throughout the south to work hard to secure voting and other Civil Rights for black Americans.

    In the late 60s and early 70s college students actively protested the badly mismanaged war in Vietnam that was grinding through American lives for absolutely no good reason.

    We also saw women protesting unequal treatment in education, the workplace, and society in general.

    In the 80s ACT-UP, and then an increasing presence of college students, protested about the government totally ignoring AIDS and public health.

    We saw Americans protesting the Cheny/Bush war for oil in the Middle East following 9/11.

    The day after the inaguration millions and millions of women and men hit the streets to protest the Trump regime taking office - for good reason as it turns out two months later and we're seeing a cabinet full of swamp dwellers and a budget that guts vital services for the elderly, the disabled, and the poor, and leave 24,000,000 currently insured Americans without healthcare coverage.

    This isn't new, it is very much needed.

  • Light and Liberty St. George/Washington, UT
    March 19, 2017 9:23 a.m.

    Children act with entitlement today, respond with a temper tantrums, and are filled with progressive, foolish notions that can't be satisfied by a speaker that challenges 'their' world. How sad. Colleges, instead of teaching them to grow up, give into their demands and suffer the consequences of what the general populace now believes about 'higher education', a place for whiners and foolish teachers marching toward 'social justice' with not a clue as to what that means or how it affects the world!

  • Thomas Thompson SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    March 19, 2017 8:19 a.m.

    The editorial is entirely correct. For a moment, however, I read it to say that only when a protest rises to the level of a physical assault has a line been crossed. So thanks for adding the final comment about the absolute need for civility.

  • Chessermesser West Valley City, UT
    March 19, 2017 7:12 a.m.

    My step mother graduated from this college. She was so sickened by the violence that she wrote the school president to say she will no longer donate to her alma mater. She had seen this sort of violence escalating there. The school replied the violence was from non-students.

    Turn the fire hoses on the protestors and most will stop. Arrest the most violent.