$27,000 a year times 2 people (meaning 2 incomes) isn't poverty. It
isn't even for one person unless they are single (and there's actually
a remedy to that, despite what people may believe). $27,000 a year + summers to
make extra dough or relax and focus on hobbies and things that make life
great?That's not poverty!Not to mention every last
holiday off, while... and let's put this in as clear of words as we can
here... while *everyone else has to work those days*.Teachers get
more than I ever have out of a job.Teachers get more than I ever have out
of a job.Teachers get more than I ever have out of a job.How
many times do I need to repeat that until people realize that they've
bought into a political rhetoric that is a lie? Those who murmur the loudest
most often have more toys and wants they are spending for than are justifiable.
Why? Because our consumerist culture demands we keep up with the Jones
family.Do we like our toys? Yes. That's human. But when we feel
it's unfair we don't make as much as other people, when what we make
is "enough", then we are buying a lie.
To "SurpriseCat" what amazes me is how teachers complain about how hard
their job is, yet with all of the technology and help we have given them they
are doing no better at teaching than the teachers did 40 years ago.Can you justify why teachers should be paid more when they do less work than
their predecessors did 30 years ago? Can you tell me why an elementary school
that has maintained roughly the same enrollment numbers for the past 50 years
needs to have 25% more staff now than they did when they first opened?
I love it when people with no idea what they're talking about yammer on
like experts. "In my day, teachers had to teach with chalk and a slate, and
they were happy to have those things." And these are the parents of the
special little snowflake who acts like a spoiled brat, who got that way because
ol' Redshirt lets them do whatever they want and never tells them
To "Teachthis" and "The Educator" but the problem is that if you
compare current teachers to what teachers were doing 30 years ago, the current
teachers look like lazy lumps.For example 30 years ago an Elementary
teacher did not have the internet to get worksheets from. Nor did they have
computer based teaching tools to use with the kids. There was no such thing as
a Reading Specialist, Math Specialist, or Fitness Specialist. Teachers had to
teach the entire class all the time, some times they got to trade around
students for some subjects. On top of that, their classes were about the same
size that they are now, and often were larger.Now, we send our
elementary school kids to school for 7 hours, and they come home with 3 hours of
homework. We start to ask why bother sending kids to school if we have to teach
them everything once they get home.If teachers want the pay/respect
they demand, maybe they should figure out how to teach the kids without the
parents having to re-teach everything that night.
@Hope & Faith give us strength My starting salary as a teacher
in 2004 was 27,000. I had benefits yes, but they were pruned every year and our
raises were absorbed into healthcare costs. I had classes that had 30-36 middle
school students in a poor district where about 25% of the kids were English
Language learners. Every year my funding was threatened and I frequently bought
supplies for my kids. My summers were spent working a summer job.The
worst part about it was dealing like parents like you who think they know how to
teach despite ever setting foot into a classroom. The lack of respect was a huge
reason why I left - that and being able to make nearly twice as much in private
industry.You do not know what you are talking about. You are part of
@Maverick"Judging by your poorly informed posts, I have little
fear that you've ever procreated. Besides, while you bash teachers the
question remains, who best to educate our children that qualified and
professional teachers?"I'm not bashing teachers. The fact
remains that every walk of life has a bottom 20%. You seem to think I'm in
the bottom 20% of both being informed and attracting a wife. You have every
right to think so although I hope you don't make all judgements on such a
dearth of evidence. My point is, I'm repeating, the top teachers
don't make enough and the bottom teachers make too much. Every parent has
a teacher horror story or two to go along with the ones about exceptional
teachers. It's not complicated.("I don't work for
you. You work for me.") "Really? Display that attitude to a 4 star
general. I dare you. It's funny how those who bash education the most know
so little about civics."If you're a teacher you do work for
me as does every four star general. These too are facts. I take issue that bad
teachers (and bad generals FTM) basically have to break the law to lose their
job. I think I stated that basic point civilly. Twice now.
I'm tired of the arguments about how many hours I work vs. the pay. As
mentioned, it comes down to simple economics. If you want quality
work, you need quality pay.Utah is not ready for quality work. They
keep trying to squeeze blood from turnips.THE ANSWER THAT NO ONE
WANTS TO HEAR: eliminate child deductions and make people pay for their broods.
Suddenly, we will have all the funding we need to cover every child's
Utah. This ship has sailed already. It sailed a decade ago. Utah has neglected
the problem for so long that we will never be able to even catch up, let alone
be competitive.Signed,A Former Educator
Teacher's starting pay was better than my starting pay in the software
sector.Teacher's long term pay still better.Teacher's
retirement is far and above what any company I've ever worked for
offered.Teacher's get a consultation period of peace and quiet to
grade.Teacher's get all summer off and still get a paycheck. They
could even work part time in summer. Heaven forbid that luxurious 3 month
vacation be too much of a burden on them.Teachers are often
associated with the democratic party. I can see why now. They want more and more
from the rest of us, cause they think they do more than the rest of us, when in
fact they really don't. Everyone else has to work. Everyone else
doesn't get the summer off. Everyone else doesn't even get half the
holidays off or snow days. So yes, keep complaining...The Deseret
News, of all newspapers, shouldn't be enabling people to want more hand
outs. I can think of a lot more jobs that go with a lot less pay that
shouldn't. The list is long before it gets down to teacher.I
respect the profession. I admire it even. But the idea that we're unfair in
Utah is a bold-faced lie.
Someone said, "Why does the legislature constantly butt in and micromanage
education?" The answer? Because our humongous school districts along the
Wasatch Front are so big that board members represent more people than state
legislators do! So the people go to their legislator instead with their
complaints, pressuring them to solve them.If the districts were
smaller, people wouldn't be going to their legislators. They would go to
their board members. The problems would be easier to solve at the local level,
and legislators would be free to concentrate on other problems in the state
rather than education! Compare salaries of local police, city and county, to
state-based law enforcement, highway patrol and prison staff. You will see that
local personnel are paid better by their locally elected officials than state
personnel are by the legislature.Get education OUT of the
legislature by dividing the big districts into community-sized districts.
Back when I was in a YSA ward, I was very good friends with several teachers in
the Salt Lake area. I can tell you they worked more than full-time. After going
to bed at 9pm, they would get up at 5am to get their classroom setup by by
7:30am, just to stay after school to help struggling student. And after they got
home around 5:00pm, their time was spent grading assignments and working on
lesson plans for the next day. And to make a little extra, many of them did
summer school or other gigs with colleges in the area during the summer months.
The idea that teachers work less than the rest of us is simply not true. That
said, the breaks and holidays teachers get are a much needed perk of the job.
I love how those who know the least about education are commenting the most
about it. If you think teachers have it so easy, why don't you join the
profession? If they work so little, why don't you come and teach? You can
probably retain your other area of employment too, right? Cuz after all,
teachers hardly work like some of you! Right??? I want to know, what
do you think is causing the teacher shortage? Be honest now! Don't lie. If
not money, what is? Why does money have such a large impact on
literally every other industry yet education has a shield around it preventing
money from impacting education? It's so funny how little some of you know.
Or want to admit!
Well Utah has no more money for education other than a state run lottery like
Wyoming. A tax increase isn't going to fly either. I vote for the lottery!!
I'm an educator, a darn good one too. I know some of you probably
wouldn't like me, I demand accountability from both students and parents. I
challenge students. I want them to learn. I've won various awards from my
teaching. I have students who write me every year. Yet, I'm
looking at other options. As much "appreciation" as I get,
it doesn't prevent me from working part time at Costco so my kids can have
shoes and food. Here in Utah teachers starting out will make $15-20k
less than their peers. Those entering the profession after 2010 will receive a
fraction of the pension those received before 2010. How can we
possibly claim that we value our children when we don't compensate
educators? How can anyone with a even tiny understanding of economics deny the
power of money? Money makes a difference in everything. If we have
enough money to sue the Feds, build a new prison, and give various other
handouts to business, we have plenty to invest in teachers. What are
our priorities?Get Educated
I'm surprised at some of the posts here. I mean, most of you get it. But
some of you don't. It makes me wonder if you've even read the article
you're commenting on? Utah is facing a massive teacher shortage
directly caused by the legislature's actions. They've killed pensions,
diverted public monies from public education, and have driven teachers out of
the profession. Article after article and survey after survey has expressed
why:The avg. Bachelors will net you around $50k. Here in Utah? $30k.
Class sizes have skyrocketed, pensions have been slashed, and micromanaging from
the legislature has been overwhelming. And yet some of you still
can't understand why so many are leaving the profession and why so few are
going into it? How do you not understand this problem? And the solution?Oh, btw, the dept of labor shows that public educators are among the
most worked in hrs. Sorry, but you folks in the private sector need to stop
whining about your jobs. You have a great deal. Educators do not, as indicated
by the teacher shortage. Econ 101 folks! Some of you should leave
your shaved ice stand and get educated.
"When I was in school, my teachers mostly worked construction, ranching, or
farming."I get it, when you were in school in 1900, you walked
10 miles to school in snow... Uphill both ways! But that's not how things
work these days. Why should teachers work construction or farming to make ends
meet? Why don't we treat them as professionals?"It's
time for teachers to drop the victim mentality and return to acting like
professionals."They already have. Notice the teacher shortage?
Or did you fail to read the article? Lets treat teachers as professionals first,
then we can call them out, shall we?"Why is it the
responsibility of the State Legislature (Not the School Board) to solve the
problems in your profession"Good question. Why does the
legislature constantly butt in and micromanage education? The legislature does
nothing but pass message bills, enrich themselves, and micromanage education.
One reform that would be great is for the legislature to finally give up its
quest to manage education. Give that responsibility to those who are actually in
BusStopRatBag wrote, "Hopefully polite discussions and disagreements
don't get in the way of good teachers knowing they are appreciated beyond
measure."As a teacher for 20+ years, my problem is not with the
level of appreciation, but with the fact that appreciation doesn't pay for
a kid's college tuition, put food on the table, pay the electric bill,
etc.As for the (let's be generous and call them) misinformed
folks who claim teachers work 1500 hours per year: you are incorrect. My
contract is 190 days and 8 hours - that's just my teaching time. In
addition, I am required to do unit and lesson plans and score student work.
Almost all of that falls outside the 190/8. To put that into real-world numbers,
let's take one assessment (of probably 8-10 over the course of the year):
my seniors' (and I have 120 of them) 10-page research paper. Just for the
final draft - not counting all the feedback given on draft one and draft two -
it takes me 30 minutes to score and provide feedback for each one. That's
one assessment, adding 60 hours not counting the feedback on drafts.
Conservatively, scoring/feedback for each of the 8-10 units takes 80 hours. Do
@Husker1: "Do you know what kind of jobs teachers get in the summer??
"When I was in school, my teachers mostly worked construction,
ranching, or farming. Some worked in a spouse's small business. Such work
paid way better than minimum wage, while teaching provided the stability and
benefits. In every case, private sector work kept teachers well grounded with
the real world where results matter to income.@Chuck E. Racer:
"Actually, despite what hours teachers are "contracted" to do, most
teachers DO put in at least 2000 hours a year as they work unpaid many evenings,
holidays, and during the summer on behalf of their class(es). "I
doubt it. 2000 hours a year is 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year. That is not
"many" evenings, holidays, and summer days. That is virtually all of
them. First year teachers may need to do that to get lesson plans and bulletin
boards set up. No seasoned teacher worth his salt should have to work that many
hours. Teachers do work more than their contract hours, most professionals do.
It's time for teachers to drop the victim mentality and return
to acting like professionals.
Many low information posts here. Some of you need to take basic economics."The market is driving people away."Bingo! Demand
for educators is high. Supply is low. Anyone who has taken a basic economics
class knows what the solution is. It's pretty obvious. "When my health insurance was just under $20,000 a year, the Davis
District apologized for charging teachers $100 a month for family coverage.
""I couldn't agree more although as a guy who finds
parenting hard perhaps some teachers would find me in the 25-30%."Judging by your poorly informed posts, I have little fear that you've
ever procreated. Besides, while you bash teachers the question remains, who best
to educate our children that qualified and professional teachers? "I don't work for you. You work for me."Really?
Display that attitude to a 4 star general. I dare you. It's funny how those
who bash education the most know so little about civics. If
you're upset at your compensation then maybe you should find another
profession? Why bash teachers for your lack of initiative in improving your
@toosmartforyou,"Utah spends 100% of personal Income Tax Revenue on
education and 62.5% of your property tax is earmarked for it. "The trouble is, though all STATE income tax goes to "education," that
includes higher ed., which was allowed after the state constitutional amendment
change in the 90's. Without that change there would be plenty for K-12
education. Legislators proposed this amendment, so they could pull sales tax
that had funded higher ed. for other things, and use what had been going to K-12
in its place. They didn't want to be forced to increase funding to K-12
more as income tax began increasing! How sad is that!
Supply and demand, simple market economics. Theory and politics aside, which
seems to be unpopular, if you want more and better teachers you will have to pay
them more. UTA said they wanted better administrators so they raised salaries
which is somewhat of an understatement.
@Husker1 - "As a teacher, I feel the same way about parents. In fact, the
lowest group (that should never have had kids) is probably closer to
25-30%."I couldn't agree more although as a guy who finds
parenting hard perhaps some teachers would find me in the 25-30%.Here's the difference though. Teachers are public employees and parents
are not. I don't work for you. You work for me. I'm a free market
sort of guy. In my profession, software development, the best make tons of
money - without a doubt far more than double what I make. Those at the bottom
don't last very long. If you can't hack it in this business
you're going to be forced to find a new profession. I would like, as the
customer, direct influence in getting substantially more for the best teachers
and an ability to help send the worst packing. It'll never work that way
given how the business of education is currently conducted and perhaps it
shouldn't for reasons I haven't considered.Thanks for your
service to the kids. Hopefully polite discussions and disagreements don't
get in the way of good teachers knowing they are appreciated beyond measure.
@NoNames ""School used to run from Labor to Memorial Day and teachers
had time to get a summer job if they wanted/needed more income."Do you know what kind of jobs teachers get in the summer?? Mostly retail or
working for a park and rec department. It's temporary minimum wage work
that brings down their average hourly income.
@NoNames "The problem is not that teachers make too little per hour, but
that they work too few hours per year. I'd love to work 1500 a year. In
reality, I work over 2000 hours a year even after taking vacation and holidays.
That is what it takes for most of us to provide a solid middle class lifestyle
to our families."I disagree. The problem is that teachers
aren't contracted for enough hours to really do their job and they
aren't paid for all of the hours they work. I'm a high school
teacher. Yesterday, I worked from 7 am until almost 8 pm. Two weekends ago, I
took my students on a field trip on a Saturday that took about 8 hours.
I'm not paid for any of those extra hours. If I take work home with me,
such as assignments that need grading, I am not paid for those hours but there
is no way I have time during the school day to grade them. My typical week is
about a 60 hr week but I only get paid for 35 hours.
LDS Aerospace,I just now looked up on salary.com and found 10
engineer jobs in Utah starting at $50,000+ with several significantly more than
that.Maybe they aren't paying you well enough for your work.Now the real money appears to be in software engineer where many are
making $70,000+ right out of college. There is a reason housing
prices keep rising. It isn't because of teacher salaries!
The market is driving people away.I was a teacher for several years
and loved it. I left because I could make better money elsewhere. At the point
that I started teaching there was no longer this golden retirement/healthcare
package that compensated for all of the hard parts of being a teacher. All that
is left now is a very low paycheck in an environment where you get told how to
do your job by people who have never set foot in a classroom. 1. We
have to make teaching attractive again2. We need smaller class sizes in
Utah3. We need more support (aides, after school programs, nurses,
counselors and social workers) because the school is increasingly becoming the
first line against poverty.
What no one has addressed, at least from comments that seem to come from
educators, is what education reform would be helpful (other than getting rid of
standardized tests) and how do those solutions get implemented? Why is it the
responsibility of the State Legislature (Not the School Board) to solve the
problems in your profession, except that the only solution proffered is
increased funding and of course that comes from them? Utah spends 100% of
personal Income Tax Revenue on education and 62.5% of your property tax is
earmarked for it. Every bleeding heart that says we should "raise taxes to
support education" usually means that they want you and your money to pay
for it. We see that some of those who are pushing for a ballot initiative
regarding increased taxes have themselves benefited from "tax breaks"
and yet they are screaming for more money (from others). I've heard the
old per-pupil funding line for 50 years; get a new talking point, that one is
decades past being worn out. When my health insurance was just under $20,000 a
year, the Davis District apologized for charging teachers $100 a month for
family coverage. Money isn't the answer--look at Washington DC.
@Fitness Freak"...she told me she didn't know what in the world
the district administrators were referring to because, she had, on her desk,
hundreds, (perhaps thousands)of qualified applicants."#1-That
was then. Now it is different. It is much more difficult now, with greatly
reduced benefits.#2-Even back then however many applicants principals
might get, were the same applicants in each of many other schools. So that
meant for 30 schools, each with 30 applications, but most of them were the same
people, that left about 1 for each of those schools.
@NoNamesAccepted,"The problem is not that teachers make too little per
hour, but that they work too few hours per year. I'd love to work 1500 a
year. In reality, I work over 2000 hours a year even after taking vacation and
holidays. That is what it takes for most of us to provide a solid middle class
lifestyle to our families."Unfortunately too many people believe this
falsehood. Actually, despite what hours teachers are "contracted" to
do, most teachers DO put in at least 2000 hours a year as they work unpaid many
evenings, holidays, and during the summer on behalf of their class(es). I know
I did. That's what it takes to do a good job. But for all that, they are
not making a "solid middle class lifestyle."
@no names accepted.If the feds own seventy percent of the land that
means the other 30 percent is privately owned. Which means the 30
percent owned is still a bigger than Massachusetts by 2.5. The
problem isn't land the problem is there are too many kids for the education
budget. However, the education budget percentage wise to the state budget is
larger than other states that provide higher per-pupil spending. Either fewer kids or a way bigger budget is needed. In Utah both of those
scenarios are not going to happen.
airnaut:"Utah Teacher:MASTER'S Degree - $17 an hourvsArticle Circle burger flipper - $15 an hour"It appears
you've divided the annual salary of a Utah teacher by a full 12 months of
work rather than by the contracted work hours. When you divide the average
starting salary for a teacher with a masters degree by the roughly 1500 hours
they are contracted to work (~185 days), you get almost $24 an hour, plus very
competitive benefits including health insurance and retirement plans.I hope ignorance rather than deceit.The problem is not that
teachers make too little per hour, but that they work too few hours per year.
I'd love to work 1500 a year. In reality, I work over 2000 hours a year
even after taking vacation and holidays. That is what it takes for most of us
to provide a solid middle class lifestyle to our families.School
used to run from Labor to Memorial Day and teachers had time to get a summer job
if they wanted/needed more income. Today, prep days and excessive holidays
during the school year make such a short summer vacation the summer job is no
@Shaun: "Federal ownership has nothing to do with it. Massachusetts is tenth
of the size of Utah but has higher per pupil spending."Really?
What is the total taxable value of taxable land in Massachusetts on a per capita
basis compared to the total taxable value of land in Utah on the same, per
capita basis?Most States derive a lot of their education funding
from property taxes. Utah has almost 70% of our land owned by the feds and off
the tax rolls. That land is also not available for economic development meaning
its value doesn't go up to contribute to higher property tax revenue, nor
do we enjoy the multiplier effect of economic development on this land that
would result in increased payroll and sales taxes.In contrast, less
than 2% of Massachusetts' land area is under federal control. Imagine if
port cities like Boston or Los Angeles suddenly lost revenue by having half
their ports closed.Utah doesn't have ports. It has land and
the natural resources associated with that land. When 70% is off limits to any
development, it most certainly affects our property, income, and sales tax
revenue, and that affects education funding.
It does not actually matter what anyone who posts on this thread thinks about
teacher compensation. It doesn't matter whether teachers deserve more
money, time, respect, or benefits. What matters is that Utah districts are
struggling to hire and retain good teachers. That means that changes need to be
made. The profession is not currently attractive to college students.
@no names accepted.Federal ownership has nothing to do with it.
Massachusetts is tenth of the size of Utah but has higher per pupil spending.There really is only two solutions to increase per pupil spending.
Decrease the amount of school children or increase the budget. Utah does spend a
higher percentage of its budget compared to other states with higher per pupil
@Lifelong Republican - Orem, UTApril 20, 2017 1:19 p.m.Blue
you need to come out of the dark ages. Engineers start a lot higher
than $50,000. Many make double that right out of college. ===== Lifelong Republican you need to come out of Trump Fake News and lies
ages. Been in the industry 35 years.I'm gonna have to
call you on that -- NO!Genetic Engineers - barely.Petroleum Engineers - maybe.All other Engineers - no.
Any article or commenter demanding more money for schools that doesn't
address federal ownership of land in Utah isn't dealing reality. If the feds are not going to turn over land to the States, they need to
dramatically increase their PILT (payments in lieu of taxes) payments.Utah loses out on both property taxes and on economic development on these
lands. If the rest of the nation wants to lock up these lands, they need to
reimburse Utah's schools for what we are missing.
@UtahTroutStalker ,IMO, parents who can't afford a small
tuition shouldn't have children. A small tuition would be a hundred
dollars a year.In Mexico, many children don't go to schools
because parents can't afford it. The ones who do go, get a very good
education. Many Mexican folks sneak into the US for free school,
meals, and medical care. IMO, why have children if you can't afford to
care for them.
Median household income in Utah is over $60,000/year. Perhaps that’s a
good target for our teachers. I would support an increase in my property tax to
help meet that.AirnautYour math is wrong. $41,000/2080 hours =
$19.71/hour. That’s just for starters in the Granite district.
Master’s degree holders would get more. And AC is NOT paying $15/hour
here.HumbugThe legislature funded a 3% increase.Imperial7Never waste an opportunity to complain about our legislatureDan SmithAnd what are teachers doing the other months? Continuing
education, preparing for the coming year, etc. Or would you rather they compete
with teenagers for summer jobs?Kent, educantoThe GOP
controlled legislature increased per pupil spending and allocated 80% of all
increased revenue to education, including a 3% pay increase.JSBFinland is a more homogeneous country. Different things keep different groups
of kids interested in school – athletic programs for some, arts for
others, etc. They all have value.
I taught for about 30 yrs. and worked with high school, jr. high, and elementary
aged students. I'm thankful for DN covering this issue, and I have a
suggestion for them.1. Don't go to a district administrator or
lawmaker to find out what the real problems are. Go directly to veteran
teachers. 2. The best companies have satisfied employees. State,
Federal and district regulations, along with increased testing, expectations,
and more unmotivated/problematic students may have more to do with teachers
leaving than even the low pay.3. Simplify. Teachers are not allowed the
time or means to accomplish what is expected of them. That spells s-t-r-e-s-s,
i-l-l-n-e-s-s, and b-u-r-n-o-u-t. Also, the younger the students, the more
prep. time is needed. Sadly, elementary teachers are given the least amount of
time. 4. Quit changing the curriculum every other year! Our state
wastes millions of dollars every year on new curriculum. P.S. Some of the best
curriculum can be found in the home schooling programs. Not in all cases.5. Pay administrators the same amount as teachers based on yrs. of service.
Why should they make more? 6. Listen to the teachers. Thank you.
@Busstop "Here's how I look at teachers. About 20% of them are
fabulous and deserve to have their salary doubled. About 60% are decent to good
and deserve pretty much what they make plus or minus 10-20%. About 20% should be
fired on the spot and never allowed to teach again."As a
teacher, I feel the same way about parents. In fact, the lowest group (that
should never have had kids) is probably closer to 25-30%.One thing
to consider about your daughters English teacher: you have no idea how much
work she does outside of her contract hours and over "breaks". For
example, say she only teaches sophomore English and has 200 students. She gives
them an assignment to write a 3-page paper. Grading those papers will be done
during her free time because her prep time at work will be used to prepare for
future classes. If it take 15 minutes to thoroughly grade each paper, then it
will take 50 hours to grade them all. That would take up an entire Spring Break
or a couple weekends. And that's just one assignment.
Lack of teacher retention is not a problem, it is a strategy. School districts
prefer high teacher turnover to prevent having too many teachers reach the
highest pay levels. Teachers in Utah used to receive a significant pension, but
that changed a few years back, reducing the motivation to enter and remain in
the profession.The problem is about more than just what we pay
teachers. Teachers are expected to prepare all their students to pass
standardized tests, even though their classes include students who don't
speak, read or write English. They are scrutinized, often on camera, for every
word that comes out of their mouths. There are discipline problems without
adequate support from administrators. And the personal risk of having a
disgruntled student claim inappropriate behaviors by the teacher makes the
classroom a minefield.Teaching has never been easy but it is not as
attractive a profession as it once was.
I looked up my daughter's high school English teacher on UtahsRight dot
com. Total compensation of $82,312 with about 25% of that in benefits.
She's a good teacher and I don't begrudge her a penny but that's
pretty decent money given (reducing by half to avoid argument) six or seven
weeks off in the summer and some decent breaks throughout the rest of the year.
There's another teacher at that school who is, for me, a superhero. He has
saved a bunch of kids from flunking out or otherwise going backwards/sideways.
He makes less. He's worth a lot more when it comes down to what really
matters.Here's how I look at teachers. About 20% of them are
fabulous and deserve to have their salary doubled. About 60% are decent to good
and deserve pretty much what they make plus or minus 10-20%. About 20% should
be fired on the spot and never allowed to teach again. We can quibble over the
percentages but the concept is hard to argue.
Great schools will raise property values. So invest in teachers and
curriculum. I have friends in California and houses near silicon
valley can be $250K more in value just across the street because they are in a
better school district.Good schools benefit all. A better educated
public is less likely to continue to be fooled by extremist views on the left or
right. Maybe then we can start working together as fellow citizens to have the
best country in the world again.
@worf - McAllen, TX"Shouldn't parents supplement the
education their children are getting at school?Why force others to
pay more property taxes when parents can take more responsibility for their
children? And yes, a small tuition would motivate parents to take a more active
role with their child's education."My answer would be no.
Mexico uses this method. I don't think we want to follow the Mexican model
of education.Society benefits from public education. Our market
economy and employers specifically benefit from public education. If anything
we should eliminate property tax exemptions for Churches and other non-profits.
They benefit from public education and should help pay for the schools that help
support the communities the own property in.
Is the Dnews going to step up and own some of this problem? They weren't
too high on public education a few years back. They had opinion piece after
opinion piece about vouchers, school grading, etc. That got into
the public's mindset along with the legislature's. Hard
to take back harmful comments that fueled the downfall of our schools. At least they are now seeing the need for change and realizing it is a
Blue you need to come out of the dark ages. Engineers start a lot
higher than $50,000. Many make double that right out of college. Also, HowDoYouDo, Teachers no longer get a pension. The legislature did away
with that in 2011. Most districts provide health insurance with the average
teacher paying 20% of the premiums and having a good size deductible ($5,000 per
family, $2,000 per individual). There are no retirement benefits
anymore. No health care or pension. That is big reason we are facing the
current crisis.In old times teachers would suffer with the low pay
because they had a great pension and great retirement benefits. Those days are
gone and now they are just stuck with low pay and NO benefits. The old timers
on these message boards don't realize that so they often post ignorant
comments about teachers. They remember what it USED to be like but those days
are long gone.Something has to be done, and soon.
I've been teaching in Utah for 25 years and this current problem isn't
like we have seen in the past.First I have to laugh at the people
posting statistics of work hours for teachers vs. pay for their own sector.
That is all irrelevant (and mostly false statistics). The fact of the matter is
that the market forces are at work. The DEMAND outweighs the SUPPLY. When that
happens you have to boost pay to attract qualified applicants. Simple
economics.For those claiming there are hundreds of applicants out
there waiting for a job, that simply isn't true. We've had 4 openings
at our school posted for the last 4 weeks. We've had 3 qualified
applicants but qualified doesn't mean quality. We hired one but just found
out she is leaving to greener pastures before even working one day at our
school.We are in crisis mode. Don't even get me
started on substitute teachers. We can't find them.
I have the solution. Cut all district level jobs with the title
"specialist". They do nothing to teach yet make 4 times what an average
teacher makes.To "airnaut" maybe that says a lot about the
condition of education these days. It shows that with minimal training, even a
burger flipper can do the same job that an educator does.FYI, your
numbers are wrong. According to the UEA the average salary for a teacher with a
Master's Degree is $58,000/yr, which is $30/hr assuming they work the US
average number of hours for teachers.It would appear that teachers
make more than you think.To "JSB" but according to multiple
surveys, teachers leave primarily because of administrators and legislators that
make it difficult to do their jobs. Pay is low on the reasons why teachers
Blue:You sure missed math class a lot.Teacher days are based off
7:00 AM to 3:00 PM. They are told they have lunch, but only 20 minutes at most
schools and many teachers have rotating lunch duties.In addition, since
they are considered salaried employees, they have other duties they must perform
outside the school day. These duties increase in secondary schools, but most
teachers put in a lot of overtime with no pay. Teachers also get no paid
vacation or comp time. They can accrue sick days, but these are strictly
regulated--unlike in private companies.They can accrue personal days--up
to 4 a year if they keep them. If they do not use them, they max at 4 in most
districts, some give up to 5, but no districts allow you to build up personal
days to take a vacation during the school year.You can not miss on certain
days-beginning and ending of school-after holidays, etc. If you do you lose the
pay and have to pay for the sub.Yes, it is a good job. You get time with
your family--unless you live in one district and teach in another-then the
calendars rarely match.Oh well, I knew what I was getting into when I
Shouldn't parents supplement the education their children are getting at
school?Why force others to pay more property taxes when parents can
take more responsibility for their children? And yes, a small tuition would
motivate parents to take a more active role with their child's education.
@blue2 "Teachers sign a contract to work 182 days at 7 hours per day.
That's 1274 hours. Full time jobs are considered to be 2080 hours (52 weeks
times 40 hours). If a starting teacher in Granite district gets $40,000, that
equates to $31.40 per hour."Teachers are contracted for 7 hrs a
day but they work far more than that. That's the predicament they are in.
Teachers have to go way above and beyond their contracted hours to meet the
goals and expectations that are set for them. If teachers only put in their 7
hrs a day and did no work before or after those hours, most kids wouldn't
even be close to grade level in reading, math, etc. If your kid is on grade
level and scores well on the ACT, you can thank his/her teachers for all the
extra hours they put in to develop excellent lesson plans, tutor your student,
grade assignments in a timely manner even on weekends and over "breaks"
(200 5-page papers don't grade themselves), and still do all the paperwork
that is required by the district and state.
re: Blue2I don't know any teachers that only work 7-hour days.
It takes more time to teach, prep lessons, grade, attend school events, and meet
with parents than can fit into a 7 hour day, even with time allotted for prep.
The teachers I know also work more than 182 days per year preparing their
classrooms, faculty meetings/training, etc. Anecdotal observations but I've
known a lot of teachers. Also, I don't know any full time jobs that
work 52 weeks per year. There's typically at least 2 weeks paid vacation
for new employees (and many companies give 3), with the number of weeks
increasing with tenure. There are also 5-10 paid holidays per year depending on
the company. Some companies also give an annual bonus or overtime pay which
aren't available to K12 teachers. Full-time work still involves more hours
but the gap isn't as large as you suggest.I don't think a
teacher's annual (9-month) salary should be identical to other full-time
jobs (summers off matters) but I do believe teachers' salaries should be
increased (good paying summer work is hard to find). If this editorial is
accurate, it seems the market supports this position.
Research say increasing pay will not solve our education retention problems. Less micromanaging, and more class management support would increase
This issue has been a problem for decades in states across the country. In My
first month of teaching I met a teacher with 10 years of experience at my school
who was leaving the profession. I asked him why. He said that while he enjoyed
teaching, he had to take care of his family. He was taking a job that almost
doubled his salary (he was almost at the top of the salary scale). He was taking
a job driving a milk truck.The comments about teacher working 182
days and 7 hours a day paints an incomplete picture. Teachers put in countless
hours of unpaid time in planning lessons, grading papers, preparing classrooms,
and tutoring students. Many pay over $1,000 in supplies and materials out their
own pocket. Private sector jobs in engineering don't work 52 weeks a year.
They get paid vacation time, usually 2 weeks, and up to 2 weeks in holiday.To hire and retain quality teachers, the entire salary scale needs to be
raised. While raising beginning salaries helps, teachers need to see some
earning potential down the road.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but would really like to know what the
teacher benefits are while working and after retirement. Could someone tell me
about their pensions and other benefits? I make more per hour than a teacher,
but do not get any benefits whatsoever and pay for my insurance. I will also
have to support myself when I cannot work anymore.There is also
something to be said for having a job that mimics the schedule of your children.
A teacher would not have to pay as often for someone to watch their children.
Teachers sign a contract to work 182 days at 7 hours per day. That's 1274
hours. Full time jobs are considered to be 2080 hours (52 weeks times 40
hours). If a starting teacher in Granite district gets $40,000, that equates to
$31.40 per hour. A brand new engineer starts at about $24 per hour ($50,000 per
year). How much more should starting teachers be paid? Maybe we should just
have year round schooling.
I related this story once before on the issue of "not being able to attract
quality teachers".Some 20 yrs. ago when this issue was also in
the news, I knew a person who worked in Jordan Districts's personnel dept.
quite well.We were discussing that latest news story about
"attracting teachers" (the story has been around at least 30 yrs. that I
know of), and she told me she didn't know what in the world the district
administrators were referring to because, she had, on her desk, hundreds,
(perhaps thousands)of qualified applicants.Readers do realize (I
hope) that if STARTING teachers salaries' are raised then experienced
teachers also have their pay raised.Has ANYONE actually "hands
on" investigated the computers of school district recruiters, or are they
just receiving the talking points of the district administrators - who ALWAYS
have and always will be asking for more, and more, and more.....I'm NOT saying teachers don't deserve more, I'm simply saying
that there may be a little more to the story.Also, state legislators
could possibly toughen up laws that allow problem kids to continually disrupt
classrooms. At no charge to the public.
This a classic case of the Utah Legislature " kicking the can down the
road" refusing to address the critical needs of education year after year.
More plans ---Yes. More speeches--yes. But no serious effort to solve real
problems. By the way, next year is an election year so Utah will have another
year of excuses, to wit, the Legislature cannot make important changes during
an election year. Keeping incumbents in place is a big priority.
Shaun,I concede that in Utah, the market is saying otherwise. In
Arizona, the average median salary is much higher. raqueb,"...they don't have to deal with your kids..."Cute.
When did you meet my livestock? Or did you mean my children? either way, you
hardly know me and my family situation so your comment is probably out of
bounds. But I digress. The question then remains: Are the teachers
leaving their "$30,000 for higher paying private sector jobs?" I'm
pretty sure teachers get an elementary education degree and I'm not sure
how many Engineering, Accounting, and other firms who are going to hire an
education degree holder to do work for them. If so, then good on them. However,
if you're just fine with increased taxation to pay for higher teacher
salary, then I wish you and the Beehive State the very best of luck.
This question is difficult, and complex. It doesn't do anyone any good to
use misleading stats, which at least 2 of the commenters here are doing. First,
there are 180 days of school, which makes for 9 months of teaching (not 8).
Second, there are many days that teachers are required to be at the school that
the children are not, so while there are 180 days of classroom instruction,
there are more days of 'work' for a teacher. Second, you don't
need a master's to teach, merely a bachelors. None of these issues change
the underlying issue, but it sure works better when you want to convince people,
if you use the truth. The undeniable truth is this, we have a teacher shortage,
which means the pay is too low to get people to do the job. When that happens,
you either pay more, or you eliminate the job. Seeing as how we can't (and
shouldn't) eliminate the job, even ignoring all the other good reasons to
raise the pay, we have to raise the pay if we want to have schools.
@ Dan SmithThe problem is not about current teachers. The problem is
that smart, qualified people are realizing that they can make twice as much in
the private sector, plus they don't have to deal with your kids,
therefore, they DON'T go into teaching (This is especially true in science
and math. If I can make $80,000 a year as an engineer, why would I settle for
$30,000 as a teacher, even with the time off?) The low pay has created a teacher
shortage. A teacher shortage means that schools are willing to hire unqualified
or low performing teachers, and your children end up with a very low quality
education. To fix this, the economic rewards of teaching, especially science and
math, should be comparable to other jobs that require the same qualifications.
If we really want Utah's children to get a good education, here are the
facts of life:1-It's a proven fact that over crowded classrooms
(more than 18 students per class), especially in the primary grades
significantly diminish the quality of education the children receive. Utah has
big problems with over crowding.2-Poorly paid teachers. Over time,
better teachers tend to leave the profession and incompetent teachers tend to
stay. If we want good teachers, we need to pay well and keep paying well.3-Schools need to spend their limited funds more wisely. The best
schools in the world are in Finland. And, they do not have an expensive
competitive school athletic program. Is there a message here? Spending money on
a football team is money that is not being spent on education. I
have heard Utah parents express with tear-filled eyes their love and gratitude
for their children. But, often these are the same parents who hypocritically
refuse to support a tax levy to help their children get a good education. Right now, the best option in Utah is home schooling. There are some
wonderful on-line programs available now.
@dan smith. It really doesn't matter if any one thinks teachers are paid
adequately. The market is saying otherwise.
The only way to save our education system and hire sufficient good teachers (and
retain them) is to vote the Republicans out of the state legislature. Anything
short of that will give us the same results we have seen for the past 30
years.If we keep doing the same thing and expecting different
results, then we are, by definition, insane.
The one thing this article didn't do was annualize the pay. Teachers teach
for approximately 8 months a year. One month off with Christmas Break, Spring
Break, and Fall Break. Then, the students get out in May and don't come
back until August. Annualized, that pay doesn't look so bad.
Either way, I wonder who it was that took away their freedom and forced them
into teaching. Did they think they would be different or somehow get more money
than the industry provided when they graduated?
"In a perfect world, there would be more guidance from state
lawmakers on how to deal with a legitimate crisis in recruiting and retaining a
sufficient number of qualified educators"Since when has the
state Legislature done anything meaningful or complex? Their 45 days are all
about message bills, exerting their authority over local entities, taking public
lands and making alcohol laws even more convoluted. They're about enriching
themselves and their friends, not about meaningful governing.
I'm grateful the DN is continuing to bring this issue to us. This
problem needs to be addressed. It appalls me that our Legislature is so
unwilling to pay teachers a decent wage. At some point, companies will not
want to move to Utah, if we don't have educated workers.
Utah Teacher:MASTER'S Degree - $17 an hourvsArticle
Circle burger flipper - $15 an hourApparently - the Utah State
legislature feels a cheap hamburger and fries is valued equal to our