Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated a President who was a liberal Democrat. What is
less well known is that several months earlier in 1963 he made an attempt to
assassinate a controversial former army general who held extreme right wing
views. In the investigation into the JFK assassination it was learned than when
Oswald was still in the Marine Corps, he told some of his fellow marines he
wanted to do something people would still be talking about ten thousand years
from now. It’s presumptuous to conclude the man who shot
Congressman Scalise went over the edge due to political ideology. But it’s
easier than talking about guns or mental illness. Too many will hastily blame
anything else to avoid to even going there.
Shorter Tyler D: "Republican speech is violence. Democrat violence is
speech, and we need more of it!"
To Tolstoy You have not read clearly what I wrote. Comey in his
testimony stated the New York Times lied in an article about Trump. NYT did not
recind article or correct. CNN reported for almost a day that the shooter of
Gabbie Gifford's was a Tea Party member only to discover they had the wrong
man. Again, they would not retract their comments. In the Pulse nightclub
massacre the news media claimed it was probably a homophobic conservative man
who was the shooter. Again, no retraction or clarification they were wrong
when it was discovered his radical Islamic ties. Enough of the excuses.
Did we not learn from our Civil War that war is brutal, horrendous, destructive
and that even 150 years later, we still feel the effects? Stop parsing words
and giving excuses, even about the press. We all have to live in this planet
and when we look down from orbit, we are all the same specks of humanity.
@Vermonter – “There seems to be plenty of uncivil acrimony on both
sides of the political divide these days”Agreed
this is simply Newton’s Third Law of Motion in action.The
point I’m trying to make – and the whole point of bringing up the
Mote and Beam parable – is the Right has been at this a lot longer than
the Left. They are long overdue for some real soul searching when it comes to
the type of media they consume and the politicians they are electing (policy
positions aside, is there anyone on the planet who thinks Trump is not the most
“morally challenged” president we’ve ever elected?). When the Gingrich revolution got into full swing, John McCain was quoted as
saying it was the political equivalent of the coming of the Khmer Rouge
think about that.And Gingrich is tame compared to some of the
intractable bomb-throwers on the Right today.
First: we need to get Russia out of the Republican party and out of American
politics. Second: We need to come together as a nation and stop this
ridiculous division of parties. We are all Americans and we need to all work
together.Third: We need a unifier as a president not a divider.
Donald Trump is a divider.
@PatriotThere is still more coming out about the shooter but much of what
you say we know is false.For one he despised Hillary and lumped her into
the same category as Trump and the Republicans. He was a loner, living out of
his van, showering at the local YMCA and asking for job leads. Lumping
this crazed nut into the majority of other Americans who resist and oppose
Trump's crude demeanor and braggadocio attitude is quite a stretch. That
would be like lumping in the Montreal or Colorado shooters along with all Fox
News listeners and right wing supporters just because they affiliated with them.
Tyler D-Maybe you would like to retract your statement linking Rep.
Giffords shooting with the Republicans or Palin. The New York Times was call
out on their mistake and retracted.President Obama told his
supporter to "get in the face" of their neighbors and encouraged to stir
things up. Make sure you point out everything liberals. You would hate to
This guy was not some detatched soul but rather an active Democrat and Sanders
disciple. He was active on all the democrat twitter and facebook sites as well
as an msnbc believer. You feed someone enough hate and they explode. This nut
was a product of the post election resist movement. He isnt alone and that is
the scary part.
@Tyler D.Thank you for clarifying the intent of your comment. I was too
myopically focused on the word "weaponize."I think you are
getting at the idea that Trump and others in his populist movement have been
politically successful with malevolent and uncivil rhetoric. And I would agree
with that. As for the beam and mote analogy, I am having trouble
seeing it. There seems to be plenty of uncivil acrimony on both sides of the
political divide these days, though Trump and his Trumpists obviously have the
upper hand at the ballot box these days. But perhaps I am only seeing what I
want to see.
@RubydoYes supporters on all sides can be crude, rude and violent. But
the difference in the last election was we had a major candidate not only
embracing and practicing those "deplorable" acts but encouraging them.
And he won! What does that say about us as Americans? Look around the world or
among your own community for the answer to that. Many, many people are
appalled and discouraged to see what has become accepted and tolerated.
Please, those of you who are equatingGabor Gifford's shooting to
yesterday, you are wrong to do so. Gifford's assailant was obsessed with
her. He was in no way related to Republicans, tea party, or conservatives. The
FBI found he voted and identified liberal. This is not the same situation.
Again, we need to stop the violence not point fingers.
@marxist: "This is fascism."You're engaging in hate
speech and inciting violence.
Most posters here are missing the point as they continue to pile on Trump. THey
need to take a good, long look in the mirror.I suggest maybe we all
should try a little harder to tone down our opinions and not just keep
reinforcing the vitriol we seem to love. We should loather it. I for one am so
sick of KSL and their morning show and their mid-day "news attack" show
because EVERY DAY is criticism of Trump from before he even won his first
primary way back when (he couldn't be serious; he was an outsider, then a
clown, then a con artist, then incompetent, then inexperienced, then a fake,
etc) that I no longer listen to that station very much. I'm ready to ask
them for a list of advertisers and then write each a letter explaining why they
cannot expect any of my business. I'd expect better of KSL (and even the
Des News who came out strongly against Trump before the election -- how'd
that position work out?) but I'll believe it when I see it. My support of
Obama AFTER he won doesn't compare with what we're seeing by those who
didn't want Trump. It is a huge contrast. Now we have not only violent
demonstrations, but shootings.
Just last week the DN shared an article with some surprising facts about Trump
voters which said they are unhealthy and uneducated the same week that Kathy
Griffin shared her memorable photo while conservatives continue to be
intimidated, silenced and beaten by the antifa and the politically correct
left. For those of you saying that Trump encouraged violence at his
rallies let me remind you of the attendees that had eggs and tomatoes thrown at
them by the anti Trump crowd. The ruthless attacks on Trump and his supporters
by the media and the far left politicians that always say that conservatives are
killing the planet and Obamacare should share some of the blame.
@Vermonter – “I did find Tyler D's comment about conservatives
weaponizing politics most interesting given
”You left out
the word “politically” in what I said, which implies that I meant
“weaponize” metaphorically. And what I meant was the radical Left
has never been able to turn their uncompromising faction into political power.
Pretty much every Republican member of Congress is a living
testament to the radical Right’s ability to do so.Simply
compare the political power of the Tea Party to Occupy Wall Street as proof of
this truth.@Flashback – “Tyler D, when was the last time
a Republican went out and shot up a Democrat baseball practice
”Well Gabby Giffords wasn’t playing baseball, but
And do you really not see the difference between protests (which are protected
and even encouraged by the 1st Amendment) and language/actions that incite
violence? The whole reaction from the Right to this tragedy reminds
me of the Parable of the Mote and the Beam.
Partisan violence is a crime against democracy, civility and humanityWhat
type of violence isn't? I ask in context of the shooting at the UPS
facility in San Francisco yesterday; 4 including gunman killed. We're
becoming a more violent society. Even the president advises us to pound the
c&@p out of 'em. Of course I'm disappointed that it's
come to this. But I did some soul searching today, and at this incident, and
Gabby Giffords, I'm not surprised.
In our opinion: Partisan violence is a crime against democracy, civility and
humanity==== In other words -- It's ONLY
partisan when it is against anything Republican.Gag!
Who said that the 2nd amendment people could take care of Clinton?Trump did. Where was the outrage?Trump said he said he could
basically assault women because he is famous.Where was the
outrage?There wasn't any by 60 million people because they
voted for him.
As readers comments show, we all have trouble to one degree or another keeping
partisanship off our minds, even for a few minutes. I did find Tyler
D's comment about conservatives weaponizing politics most interesting given
that a conservative lying in a hospital bed in critical condition prompted this
@HSTucker " I never again want to see claims that President Trump is a
"fascist" or "dictator." I heard with my own two
ears, Donald Trump describe the way things used to be in the good old days - a
protester would be dragged out and beaten up. He even said he would pay the
legal bills of anyone administering the beating. This is fascism. I heard it
myself live. Can you deny it?
While I agree with this editorial, make no mistake many of us think Donald J
Trump is the greatest threat to the U.S. Constitution we have ever witnessed.
We are not going to modulate our concerns.
Hate is the best weapon that politicians can use to defeat their opposition.
And it doesn't really matter if it is based upon truth or lies.War requires hate of the enemy. Usually there is/are a event(s) that happen
in the lead up of a war that creates the hate that may be the result of the
enemy but may also be lies by our own government. We may never know.
Tyler D, when was the last time a Republican went out and shot up a Democrat
baseball practice because they didn't like the Democrat political
stances?News Flash Tyler. The right is not behind all these
protests and sit ins and anarchy. The left is. They condone it and don't
condemn. Yes I agree the Republicans could have been a little nicer
to Obama. But then you have Ted's infamous statement of "Bush lied
people died". Reid calling Romney a liar etc the vitriol from the left has
been way worse.Say what you want about Trump's big mouth but no
conservative has gone out and targeted any Democrats.
@weightless skittles The press has always relied on anonymous
sources and insiders. It is nothing new and to try to tie that to this shooting
is without merit. If your claim were true this type of incident would have been
happening for more then a hundred years.
As much as I dislike Donald Trump's behavior and rhetoric, Kathy Griffin
was flat out sickening. Violence is nothing to joke about or encourage and there
has been far too much of both from extremists in BOTH parties. Peace, or violence, begins with thoughts, then words, then actions. I propose
that we need to change the way we see each other. Politics is such a small part
of life, hopefully. Outside of my immediate family, my aunts, uncles, and
cousins that I love are rabid Trump supporters. I just won't talk about
politics with them, because at the end of the day, the only lasting things are
family and friends.
Hate and fear are the two emotions that we all must be wary of. Some groups sew
hate while others sew fear, and the target groups are diverse. I personally,
find it reprehensible, how many individuals express real hated, no matter what
side of the equation they stand on. I also find it disgusting how judgmental
many people are, and how they feel justified in their judgmentalism.
On Wednesday a shooter opened fire on a baseball team consisting of Republican
lawmakers who were practicing for a charity game. We condemn this horrific
attack carried out on politicians playing one of the nation’s great
uniting pastimes.On Wednesday a shooter opened fire at a UPS
facility in San Francisco. Where is the condemnation of this horrific attack
carried out on ordinary citizens just doing their jobs?
It's horribly sad that people from the Left and Right cannot even come here
and agree that violence is bad and it needs to stop.This isn't
about Trump. There was political violence long before Trump was elected. This
isn't about any one person. This isn't about guns laws. This is
about a culture of violence. This is about a diverse culture with too much
intolerance on BOTH sides.
Thank you, Deseret News. I never again want to see claims that President Trump
is a "fascist" or "dictator." That is the type of speculation
that incites actual violence (e.g., the left's "punch a fascist"
campaign) and should never appear on this site.
A crime against democracy? Did you get that rot from Scott Pelly?This meme of faux indignation is nauseating. When someone plows a truck into a
crowd of people, you call him a "lone wolf" and sweep his affiliations
under the rug.But if you shoot at politicians, that's an
outrage.I don't get it.
"Partisan violence is a crime against democracy, civility and
humanity."____________________Regardless of what the Deseret
News, Newt Gingrich, or anyone else argues, partisan politics was not the cause
of yesterday’s violence. It was one man’s convenient excuse.
And yet, this paper is reluctant to condemn a President who rose to power
preaching violence and has done nothing to change his tone and attitude after
Civility does in fact matter. Certainly we are incensed when "our guy"
is maligned or "their guy" is doing the maligning. But we must be
equally incensed when "our guy" is the one doing the maligning or when
"their guy" is the one maligned. Otherwise, we do not understand or
really support civility.
In politics we have a choice between conversation or violence (it’s a
spectrum of course, but those two choices firmly anchor each end).For anyone participating in the public square, the question of which direction
your actions are moving towards should always be front and center.Both sides share blame, but frankly I have never in my lifetime witnessed the
destruction of norms of civility and public discourse we have seen from the
Right, especially since Obama’s election. Of course these
tendencies started long before Obama (e.g., politicians like Newt Gingrich and
inflammatory media like AM talk radio), but any sense of trying to find common
ground seemed to go out the window in 2008.I’m not sure when
this “fever of rage” will break but until it does we will struggle
to live in the kind of republic our Founders designed (which, first and
foremost, was meant to foster compromise). PS – of course the
Left has become fairly intolerant of late too (see college campuses) but their
intractability has not yet been politically weaponized like it has on the Right.
Trump at his rallies calls for decenters to be carried out on stretchers.a
GOP congressman from Montana body slams a reporter.NO - it's
only liberal democrats who are guilty of partisan violence.FYI --
Mr. Trump is currently in 3 separate law-suits for inciting partisan
In 2008 there were millions of guns, hundreds of partisan nuts, and an inflamed
partisan base fueled by a hyperbolic conservative media. Even here in Utah
there were hanging effigies of President Obama and elected officials stoking the
fire with doubts of his citizenship and legitimacy. What's the difference
here in 2017 vs 2008? One man, Donald Trump. He put partisan politics on
steroids and got more support from the public and elected politicians along the
way. America has reaped what its sown. We are not the country many of you
think we are. If you believe we our the shining city on the hill and the
Lord's prodigal child, just travel out of the country or browse the
internet for international news. We live in a bubble and one that is growing
more dangerous every day.
"In 2008, those numbers were closer to 30 percent."Gee what
happened after that? Mitch McConnell declared on the very first day of the
Obama administration (yea the same Obama who at the time was being declared a
foreign born intruder by Trump), Republicans would block absolutely everything
the new administration tried to accomplish. Then comes the tea party
who literally shut down the government over their views, and declared a no
prisoners approach to governing. Did Democrats react to this ahhhh
yea. But look no further than yourselves Republicans for the origin of the
current animus. Remember the 30% number was after 8 years of Bush
starting wars, and crashing an economy.
@LDS Liberal "Where was the Deseret News when Donald Trump called for
beatings and said he'd pay for the expenses at his campaign
rallies?"Good question. I agree substantially with this
editorial, but fact is, I know Donald Trump despises people like me, so
it's hard to feel any warmth for the other side.
I think that someday, probably not this day, but someday America will have to
come to grips with its violent and murderous legacy.Four Presidents
have been assassinated. At least four others almost were. Political acts of
terror have been a staple in American history for all manner of elected
officials. I am hard pressed to find a historical precedent in other countries
histories in recent history.And we have not even begun to evaluate
the number of other gun related incidents in the country, nor why.Other Western style democracies have figured out a way to reduce this
violence. What is so wrong with America that it choses to continue our
murderous ways? Is this what we want for our children?
The media needs to remember that they too, are members of society and most are
citizens of this country. Yes, it is important for news to be reported.
However, the news is increasingly becoming mere articles written to persuade,
insinuate, cast judgement and not to inform the reader only. When major news
sources continue to push a story with"anonymous sources", an
"insider" said this-, and a " close insider" said that,
it becomes one story after another with only the reporter controlling what he or
she wants out in the public. The is not fact based journalism. Such rampant
rhetoric of the hostile media towards any political group is dangerous to the
people' safety and to democracy. This kind of soft or deliberate
propaganda breeds hostility and lack of respect for opposing views or beliefs.
We all need to remember the sacrifices that made us a country and a United
States of America. We should stand shoulder to shoulder unified even if our
political views differ. May God bless this people that we may heal our wounds
"How citizens treat each other matters. Rhetoric matters."No
mention of Trump suggesting those "2nd amendment types" could "do
something about Hillary". Or, that he could "shoot someone in the middle
of 5th Avenue and not lose any voters". Trump changed political
discourse in the US forever. And not in a good way.
In our opinion: Partisan violence is a crime against democracy, civility and
humanity======= Where was the Deseret News when
Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was gunned down and nearly assassinated?Where was the Deseret News when Donald Trump called for beatings and said
he'd pay for the expenses at his campaign rallies?Where was the
Deseret News just last week Donald Trump's son, Eric Trump said - and I
quote: "Democrats are not even people".Nah- it's ONLY
partisan when it's a Republican is the targeted...
Speaking about "crimes against democracy", that's exactly how
people are describing the things the Republicans are doing (See secret health
care legislation that is going on right now). Shooting people is never an
effective way to solve problems. In fact, it's mentally unhinged. However,
the usual ways to affect politicians: town meetings, marches, and protests, are
being ignored by Republicans in their zeal to push unpopular legislation.
"How citizens treat each other matters. Rhetoric matters. In order to heal
the nation and continue to strengthen America’s great experiment,
individual citizens must recommit to civility and adopt the kind of political
discourse that constructs rather than corrodes the country."Agreed...... and honestly I appreciated it when DN denies some comments I make
because I do not at the time see them with their unintended interpretation.
Sometimes I can't find where offense was inferred. But that's
ok..... If I really have a point I want to make, I just need to rethink how to
deliver that idea. We need to find ways to have discussions around
ideas without mindlessly clumping people into over simplified groups or
"ilks" that seek to discredit those people simply through association.
Mockery and insults never convinced the other party to change their opinion.
Only through respectful dialog can common ground be found... and there is a lot
of common ground.