Yes, the principle of self-reiience is important, but the law of compassion is
more important. That doesn't always mean giving a man a fish, tho that is
necessary in many cases. It means teaching him how to fish, not condeming him.
The "compassion" displayed in these comments is just overwhelming.
:(By the way, how is that trickle down thing workin' for ya?
Wow! This is sad but also real. What is also real, poverty and poor will never
be defeated. Politicians and liberals like to think so, but it will never
happen in any lifetime. One very smart man once said, "The poor will always
be with you." I believe him. Trillions of dollars have been spent on
fighting poverty and we have not made a dent. These challenges are the results
of many life choices. Why not move to a town where the income will find a decent
place to rent? All about choices. Let us not deny those choices from others, but
encourage them to move where the opportunities are. A two bedroom house for rent
in Independence, MO is less than $500 a month. If my situation is this bad, I
know where to go.
We all seem to forget basic economics with price floors--which is what the
minimum wage really is. Raising minimum wage will produce surplus labor--i.e.
unemployment. So, for the lowest skilled workers, they either lose their jobs
(and are replaced by machines), or don't get the job they might gotten if
minimum wage were lower. Minimum wage laws seems compassionate.
But, in reality, they hurt the lowest skilled workers in America, i.e. the
poorest of the poor among us. But, the flipside is that we collectively feel so
good that we all care so much about the poor.
@ DenDen Interesting because when they built some apartments in West Jordan
just south of 90th South on Redwood Road, a three bedroom apartment was going to
rent for more than my house payment on the home I had built in Davis County
(also three bedroom, full basement and double garage) in 1986, and this was
about 1990-92. Just before that, in April of 1988 there were HUD homes listed
in the newspaper and about 200 of them were in West Jordan, listed at around
$39,000. For a $35,000 offer you could have your pick. Two years later they
were GONE and a new starter home cost in the $50-60,000 range. My mortgage was
for $64,000 at 9 7/8% interest and the house payments WERE less than the
apartment rent in WJ. So this isn't a late phenomenon...it has been here
at well over two decades, closer to three.
The federal minimum wage was instituted in 1938 in order to define the minimum
"living wage" for employees, and to protect workers from employers who
changed wages frequently, sometimes from week to week. The actual purchasing
power of the minimum wage reached its peak in 1968. Since then, it has fallen
way behind, and this article does a nice job of demonstrating concretely what
that means with respect to wages and housing costs.The question at
this point should not be if we ought to do something about this, but what we can
and should do right now. Given the fact, that this nation was once able to
support a minimum living wage, I see no reason why we couldn't do this
again (and soon!).
In my lifetime, I've never seen rents, on average, higher than a mortgage
payment.The apartment owners are taking advantage of people's
lack of a down payment and bad credit!I do not advocate government
meddling in business, but this would be the one time!
I feel bad for this mans plight. However what most seem to not consider is min
wage was never meant to be a living wage. Its a starter wage, a wage teenagers
and college young people work at that are living at home or bunking with
roomates. The other issue is cost of living is relative to the minimum wage.
Meaning at $8 per hr your BigMac is $4 but if resturants have to pay a $15 wage
then your BigMac goes up to $8. Then eveything else goes up, food, insurance,
housing, all goes up. The guy making $60K a year will eventually get $100k to
keep pace with the change in the market. Min wage will always be at the same
percetage difference of higher income earners. Remember min wage never comes
down. Its basic economics.
@news.john2"If you raise the minimum wage won't the cost of
housing and everything else just go up and the money just goes to the landlords
and the like?"If we assume an increase in minimum wage yields an
increase in costs equal to that increase in employee pay, then what we can infer
is that the increase in wages is entirely to people at the bottom but the
increase in costs goes to everyone so those at the bottom would see a net
increase in money but those who didn't see any increase in their pay with a
minimum wage increase would effectively see a net decrease in money.
If you raise the minimum wage won't the cost of housing and everything else
just go up and the money just goes to the landlords and the like?
Wow!* house payments* health insurance* car payments
combined with all the fees, and repairs* price of food* dentists* etcIs it any wonder why life has become so difficult? Some of
this is the result of weak political decisions, and low informational level of
citizens not speaking out, or being aware of events.IMO. Prosperity
can only thrive when its citizens are informed, skilled, and knowledgeable.
Imperfect I am, even below the dust of the earth. 3rd Nephi 11:30 behold this is
not my doctrine to stir up the hearts of men with anger one against another, but
this is my doctrine that such things should be done away. first let me testify
the Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God and the Savior and redeemer of
mankind and rules in all perfect just righteous judgement in mercy, and justice,
and vengeance and in all things forever and ever and the four standard works of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are a part of the Word of God in
their entirety and Joseph Smith Jr. who translated the Book of Mormon which is a
true historical abridgment of Jesus Christs dealings with the people in the
Americas up to about 400 A.D. also taught be of grace that when judgment comes
it be not so hard on you. It used to be that that numbers helped to tell a
story of the state of Utah that helped the poor. Today the numbers help to tell
a story of the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer in the state of Utah.
Over all result will be more in the street without housing. The state wide
issues are not being addressed adequately by the state of local communities.
It is more convenient for SLC elected leaders to make impassioned statements
about the Paris Climate Accord than to confront the affordable housing issue.
"if you are a shareholder and the CEO failed, complain to the Board of
Directors, "Except that the BOD IS the problem. They are all
CEO's of other companies. They take care of their own all the while
boosting their own pay.My point is not that CEO's should make
the same as their employees. It is that they should play by the same rules.
Average employee severance is typically a calculation involving salary and years
of service. Higher salary = larger severance.But, in this case,
Ms Meyer negotiated to cut employee severance while raking in a Whopping $23
million clams. You see no issue here?
There is a rental crisis going on across the country right now. Rents are
spiking, wages are not. Even people making significantly more per hour than
minimum wage are squeezed right now. The whole issue is much broader than one
can address by simply blaming the poor and those living paycheck to paycheck
for a lack of ambition. And it is not just a regional issue.
I wouldn't be opposed to raising minimum wage to $10 an hour but $15 would
be a bit of a shock to the economic system. But affordable housing
is an issue. And we can say really harsh things about adults working at
low-entry jobs or maybe make things better. Or we can have more homeless running
around Salt Lake which we all seem to love, right people? Or maybe create
shanty towns inside or just outside our cities? The solutions to
these problems are complex. Yeah, when I was single entering the
work force I had a roommate, easy solution. And some people do have family they
can live with. Or maybe a person can shack up with their girlfriend/boyfriend,
something not espoused by the majority religion of these posters on this board
but might have to be their 'economic reality." But there
are forces driving our economy that are not good, our standard of living will
not improve, people are working two or three jobs. It makes it harder to raise
children and do other positive civic things to make our communities better.
People can't do things working 100 hour weeks, whether it be lower income
or middle income jobs.
@Pelukas: "So much disdain for the low income families, you would expect a
more compasionate response from a good hearted community, but no, just blame the
low income."I think you misunderstand. Helping people accept the
responsibility to be self-reliant IS compassionate. Short-term, our
good-hearted community often shows compassion by helping pay the rent.
Long-term, compassion means helping low income Utahns to increase their earning
capacity and to live within their means. The availability of cheaper, smaller
housing would help.As others in this thread have pointed out, by
comparison to generations of mankind since the creation, and by comparison to
most of the rest of the world today, many of those at the "poverty
level" in America live in relative luxury. Let's keep some perspective.
Even assuming that there are no negative effects from increasing the minimum
wage, it is still nothing more than a legal obligation, and does nothing to help
those people actually gain new skills and better employment. As such, it is not
compassionate as some are suggesting. In fact, it could be
considered cruel, as the mentality created by telling people that they cannot
better their situation serves to reduce their will to try. Sure, some may need
help. Most of us do at some point. But that help cannot effectively replace
individual effort, nor should it try.
It is a pity that the Church-owned newspaper reads like propaganda from the
Occupy movement. What happened to the doctrine of self-reliance?
From the article: "Tara Rollins, director of the Utah Housing Coalition,
said there is no solution to housing affordability problems that can last while
minimum wage remains the same."Perhaps her seemingly defeatist
attitude was incorrectly reported, because one doesn't make such a
statement without considering all possible solutions.@cmsense:
"Maybe we should legalize micro apartments, all studio, with murphy beds or
legalize more high rise high density housing or designate zoning for dare I say,
mobile home parks. Is government regulations/zoning getting in the way of
legalized affordable housing?"AMEN! Compassion means making more
affordable places, not creating dependency.@Vermonter:"housing in America has luxuries unheard of in most of the world. The
first and probably most expensive luxury is space. You can easily fit 2 or 3
average apartments from some large cities of the world into 1 average American
apartment."AMEN! In Salt Lake City, as well as many other major
North American cities, homeless people have resorted to squatting in tents.
Allowing people to live in tiny houses would be far more compassionate and
KralonNot everyone is able – OK, place safety nets and help themor willing – that’s their choice, let them live with the
consequencesjoeblowif you are a shareholder and the CEO
failed, complain to the Board of Directors, who have that control, or vote your
shares to replace them. That’s how it works
Minimum wage is not ment to be a living wage. It is an "Entry" level
job. Additionally, because of supply and demand, almost every entry level job is
at or above $10 per hour, over $2 more then the minimum. The market place will
always set what the true minimum is about $10.50 in Utah. That said, I remember
5 kids or more at every gas station, pumping your gas, washing your windows,
checking your oil, air and taking your payment. Raising the minimum killed all
of those jobs, just like kiosks are now going to kill the fast food jobs, keep
it up and our kids will never find employment. Liberals kill everything in the
You can almost afford a place on a starting teachers salary. Almost!Run the numbers.... 32k/yr according to these numbers. Some people may
question what percent of income is spent on housing. And more importantly what
percent is spent on cell phones, internet, cable, liquor, prepared food....
things many younger people consider "necessities" and yet have done
nothing to be valuable themselves.
So much disdain for the low income families, you would expect a more
compasionate response from a good hearted community, but no, just blame the low
I see ads in Utah County for $12-14/hr for fast food work. Education and
relevant skills are the key. It costs in total almost double the wage to
employ someone. If taxes, fees, healthcare, insurance, and utilities were lower,
employees could immediately earn far more.
joe blow- I once thought that CEO salaries should be divied up among employees
too and it would make a significant difference. Then a friend debunked it for
me.CEO of walmart makes 20 Million a year. What a huge robbery from
his employees, right!!?? Wrong. If you divided up his salary among Walmart
employees in the US alone they'd all get a whopping..... ten dollars!
Well, you have two options, work a ton or earn some skills that make your
employable beyond the minimum level.You get paid by what you produce
This is a pure agenda article trying to raise the min wage. I've seen
variations of it all over the country. They compare the minimum wage to an
average apartment. Beyond sloppy journalism, that's purposeful. But here's a solution: don't work for minimum wage! But you
can't find a good-paying job? Get skills! We should spend our compassion
teaching men how to fish instead of giving away free fish except in dire,
temporary emergencies. Here's another solution: get married and
stay married! One of the leading indicators of poverty is marital status. And despite the stories here, most people, even unskilled labor,
aren't paid minimum wage. Even with tens of millions of illegals there is a
bit of an upward pressure on wages. Teenagers and unskilled new-hires are most
of the min wage data set.
I think there is a man by the name of David Hall that already has plans for
affordable, high-density housing that was targeted for developing an area around
Sharon, Vermont. Perhaps he could help.Second, housing in America
has luxuries unheard of in most of the world. The first and probably most
expensive luxury is space. You can easily fit 2 or 3 average apartments from
some large cities of the world into 1 average American apartment.
"Things are relative in worth to each other (except for professional sports;
people make more money with their brains than their backs) and if you jack up
one end of the pay scale it kind of kinks those in the middle."I'll Play,Why Would I - pay a $23 million severance package
to an exiting CEO when the company did poorly. Why Would I not tell a ceo that
the corporate severance package is the same for everyone and is X weeks of pay
for every year of service?Yes, when you "jack up one end of the
pay scale it kind of kinks those in the middle".
Finding and working for personal responsibility centered solutions doesn't
negate compassion...except in the religious, apparently.Remember
minimum wage only applies to people who are working.
Because we are debt addicted nation over spending and borrowing money for a
lavish lifestyle, there are consequences like inflation and poverty.In 2008, when housing cost plummeted, all we ever heard from government was
how to get house prices higher and higher.What's so wrong with
low prices? Well, a nation with trillions of debt with falling prices
can't make it's debt payments.Debtor nations like us must
have inflation and with inflation comes poverty.A lot of the cost of
a house is regulations. It takes up to 2 years to get through the process of
approving a subdivision by Utah County. This drives up home costs for no good
reason.How can Utah County complain about high housing costs, when
it's anti-development?There is plenty and more than enough of
land in Utah to house 3 million people. The State's 8,000 employees do a
poor job in managing State resources.UTA is a mess. Utah Division
of Water Rights is anti-Home Builder & anti-farmer. UDOT contributes to air
pollution & high accident rates. Heath care is un-affordable. Our Public Education system (Public Day Care) is reached 22 years to get a
"good job."Utah is a very poorly managed state.
Now, add healthcare into that equation and it looks even more dire.A
few decades ago, anyone who worked full time could afford to live. They could
afford health care and housing and food.But, back then CEO's
only made about 30 times what their workers made and health care was not more
than a typical mortgage.
There is not much compassion for the working poor in many of these comments.
One doesn't need to read the paper to know we have a problem, we only need
to drive down the street and we see homeless begging at intersections in Utah.
I'm all for people improving their ability to earn more, but we need to
make laws and have a support system that provides for those who do not have the
capabilities that most have. Also, it is important to set a minimum wage to
keep businesses from exploiting those who have the least skills. Consider that
those who are paid minimum wage are least able to negotiate with an employer,
then you have a better picture of the people who are working minimum wage jobs.
Sure if you are working minimum wage job it is reasonable to not be able to
afford a ski boat, but food, housing and clothing must be within reach for even
the lowest skilled people.
Multigenerational family living Hawaii style without the beach. I know someone
who's two grown kids, both with spouses and 3-4 kids each all moved in with
her in her home that is less than 1700 sqft. Her anxiety spiked and
everyone's nerves are frayed and then the kids still complain if they are
asked to pay rent or contribute. She wants to move out of her own house.Change zoning to accommodate more high density housing? especially near
good transit where someone could live without a car.Index the
minimum wage to inflation. Yea, the $15 per hour movement no doubt kills jobs,
but lets get real. It has been years since the minimum wage was raised. Yes, de couple health insurance from employment entirely or at least
merge the individual market with the employer market so all citizens have the
same options and tax benefits/subsidies wether someone works for a corporation
or themselves. HMO's must offer the same plans at the same prices to all.
Reign in cost for healthcare with price controls (like utilities who have a
monopoly, so do patent protected drugs and devices need some common sense price
controls. It beats the current price gouging.)
This comments section comes off very un-Christlike. You don't know this
man's situation or history and the smug tone is distasteful. I
dont know about you but I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ, not to the
Church of Ayn Rand. The world has changed in the last 20 years. A
lot of well paid jobs that were previously held by people with low education
levels no longer exist. Housing is more expensive than it was in the past. Just
getting an education costs a fortune and it isn't attainable for
everyone.Sure, people make their choices but at some point we have
to acknowledge that we operate in a system that is increasingly competitive and
there are a lot of people in a downswing right now.
Why would I not be convinced that a resort town, like Park City, must make
affordable housing available for those with no skills or education that perform
minimum services? I know many professional people who cannot afford to live in
Park City. Where does it say you have to live where you work?With
respect to minimum wage, I know a college student that made $17 an hour working
in a hospital lab for the ER on weekends to put himself through college and now
that he is graduated, is looking for work prior to attending medical school and
the jobs pay a whopping $18 an hour. OK, fine, he can do that, but why should
someone who has the two skills of making hamburgers and counting back change
that the cash register automatically figures make $15 an hour? Things are
relative in worth to each other (except for professional sports; people make
more money with their brains than their backs) and if you jack up one end of
the pay scale it kind of kinks those in the middle.There's no
substitute for initiative and sorry, to get ahead (or keep from sinking) you
need it, as well as avoiding crime, drugs, stealing...just the easy way to get
something for nothing. The Law of the Harvest!!
"Failure must be preserved, lest success be destroyed." -Me
Move in with family, or friends, or get roommate, or get married, no chance of
it working out unless with team work. Ever heard of someone making it alone
in this world? Ever heard of someone surviving alone, or becoming successful
alone? It has never happened and it never will. Attend a church, any church,
or any organization: find people you can trust. There are many friendly
tolerant people in this world. It will all work out.
It is easy to say that people should just make themselves more valuable, but not
everyone is able or willing to do that. So, do we just go hardcore and allow
those people to become homeless or go on welfare and become a drain on
others?Everyone is different and some people need a little extra
help to get to a living wage. Some need compassion and forgiveness for past
mistakes, which hopefully they don't want to repeat.IMHO, it
takes a lot of different organizations and programs to help people maximize
their value and quality of life. There is no single, simple solution to this
issue.I started working at age 11 picking fruit and vegetables. My
first summer I made $300 and thought I was rich. My family is lucky in that my
sister and I were the first generation to get college degrees and we both got
advanced degrees, even though our parents couldn't help pay for it. And,
this was at a time when a high school degree was good enough to get a good wage.
Times have changed, now I see a bachelor's degree as the minimum degree to
get a good wage for most people. But, we can't turn our backs on people
because they don't measure up to our expectations or standards.
Thank you for your nice comment.I'm friends with many of my
former students on facebook, and its good knowing they are happy, successful,
and perhaps I had an influence on their life.If I was still
teaching, I would have used this article, and made a lesson, and discussion out
Minimum wage is communism. The government forcing anyone or any business to the
opposite of capitalism. Minimum wage is simply one more form of currency
inflation and harm to capitalism and freedom.As an individual if you
are not content with minimum wage then better your situation. Its called the
pursuit of happiness and freedom.
The solution is not a higher minimum wage. Per the late Jim Rohn, noted business
philosopher, the solution is to make yourself more valuable in the marketplace.
How does one do that? Learn to work harder on yourself than on your job: read,
study, learn more skills, arrive early, stay late, sign up for difficult tasks
no one else wants to do, be cheerful, find a mentor, become an apprentice,
volunteer for an organization where you can rub shoulders with people whose
skills you'd like to acquire. What can society do? Ensure that
schools teach the power of an abundance mindset, of looking for and creating
opportunity, the power of dreaming, goal-setting skills, and the truth of Andrew
Carnegie's mantra: "Whatever the human mind can conceive and believe,
it can achieve.""There is stopping a person who refuses to
give up!" -- Michael Humes
The entire premise of the story is typical liberal dogma, but again this will be
in the Monday edition and that seems to be a regular feature now."The findings indicate that minimum-wage workers must choose between
working exorbitant hours or spending a very high and exceptionally risky portion
of their income on housing, the report authors believe."Wrong!
Workers can choose between working more hours, or demonstrate skills and work
ethic for higher paying jobs. Or, they can live with a roommate and share
expenses. And, many (perhaps most) minimum wage earners are young people living
at home. In many cases minimum wage workers are spouses with a small
second income for a couple or family.If the worker is a single
parent, then they have already made some other bad choices. Joining the
military is an option for some people (not criminals, drug abusers or school
dropouts) and will open many doors for good future careers.Bless
those who are willing to support affordable housing, and can find a way to make
it work. However, do not think that it is the taxpayer's responsibility to
give everyone a house. (or car, or TV....).
it takes time effort and money to make money and there is no free lunch for
anyone item x is worth only X with all of the pieces and parts I am personally
tired of paying more than economical value for others continued errors in
theirpersonal judgement process
Why are so many families/individuals working at such low wages in Utah?
Doesn't Utah have the best job market in the nation right now? I saw the
mention of raising the minimum wage, but you still won't have family wage
jobs in those service oriented situations.
@ Worf,I for one commend you for your service in education and now a
hopefully enjoyable retirement. I wonder if what you taught your students then,
will reflect on the world we have today? Hopefully all your effort will come to
fruition. One can only hope.
They need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work 95 hours a week.
The moral of the story... Make better decisions and minimum wage issues will
never be a problem for you
The implications of this article are that other tenants should pay higher rents
to subsidize the poor and we should all pay more in taxes to subsidize the poor.
Unfortunately both those solutions make it harder for the poor to rise up out of
poverty.Traditionally people have lived with family or roommates if
the rent is too high. In some countries they have rooming houses where you rent
a tiny room and share bathroom kitchen and laundry facilities, which works if
the residents are well-behaved.Another solution to high rents in our
cities is to encourages business to locate in smaller towns where rents can be
lower, drawing people away from the Wasatch Front. There is a greedy
wall-to-wall development mindset here that will only make the housing situation
There are a lot of people out there working very hard and scraping by somehow.
There are lots of financial pressures on the rising generation. I
knew a guy who worked as an assistant manager for the state of Utah, and he
lived out of the back of his truck for months, even in the winter.
Maybe we should legalize micro apartments, all studio, with murphy beds or
legalize more high rise high density housing or designate zoning for dare I say,
mobile home parks. Is government regulations/zoning getting in the way of
legalized affordable housing?
maybe these folks working part time jobs could get full time work if the
employers were not forced by obamacare to buy insurance for 30+ hour/week
workers.those making minimum wage are only 2-3% of the population,
and half of those are under 25.I'd rather the govt help with
low income housing than foul up labor markets with artificial floors and
insurance mandates that force employers to reduce employees and their hours.
One needs to ask what a society would be like if you exalt the needy and
penalize achievement.Atlas Shrugged.
Minimum wage was never intended to support a family. It is meant only to pay
those who enter the job force with no job skills, education or training. Those
who complain they can't afford to live on that have only themselves to
blame for their own bad choices.
Maybe those minimum wage employees should move out of the valley to a less
expensive locale. Rural Utah would be a good place where they could afford a
rental unit. Regardless of the politicians and the DN, supply and demand still
work. . .
As a retired teacher, I have seen many students not taking their education
seriously. They don't see the importance of gaining, and striving for a
skill. Test taking is not enjoyable for students, or teachers.This
is a time of life when learning is much easier then as an adult. It's a shame. Education can be easily modified to being an enjoyable
thing which most all students would want to learn. Make it fun, by building
curiosity.No reason for any adult working for minimum wage.
Are there any jobs (except for 14 year old kids) that still pay minimum wage in
Utah? Even the local fast food places around here are paying $10 an hour to