Op-ed: Why strong Mormon women stay in the church

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  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Aug. 14, 2017 2:22 p.m.

    =And finally, if knowledge is impossible, how can we already know things? (You
    =wrote, "Proof is the process of going from what we already know...")

    That's just my point. If one has to be able to prove something to know it, and if proving means going from what one already knows to some conclusion, and if one is born knowing nothing, then one can never prove anything, because one cannot get started.

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Aug. 14, 2017 2:21 p.m.

    Two whole classes of geometries sprang up that violated this axiom, and mathematicians found that all those geometries were completely internally consistent. In more recent times, physicists have discovered that one of those classes of non-Euclidean geometries appears to describe the actual world better than Euclid's geometry does. Still, the vast majority of elementary school teachers who teach geometry choose Euclidean geometry due to its simplicity. Are they wrong to do that?

    =Can we say this about your proposed axiom?

    No, and we can't say it about Euclid's Fifth Axiom either.

    =If gods and religion aren’t mathematics, then your asserted axiom must
    =establish itself as true in the non-math world to qualify as more than
    =conjecture, correct?

    That's all ANY of the axioms are, is conjecture. By definition they are assumed to be true without any proof.

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Aug. 14, 2017 2:21 p.m.

    FJSL (aka Karen R.) posted:

    =Are mathematical proofs based solely on axioms?

    No. If one theorem correctly proves a statement true, then that statement can be asserted in a future proof. The axioms are all you know to be true IN THE BEGINNING of one's mathematical knowledge.

    =Axioms like a+b = b+a are pretty much universally accepted, aren’t they?

    Most are, but they don't have to be, and universality of acceptance can change over time. For example, Euclid included as the fifth axiom to his five-axiom system the assertion that, given in two dimensional space any straight line and a point not on it, there "exists one and only one straight line which passes" through that point and never intersects the first line. This axiom got pretty close to universal acceptance in Euclid's day, but over time more and more mathematicians grew to doubt it.

  • Finn11 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 14, 2017 12:21 p.m.

    @ Glenn101

    Karen R. here.

    "...maybe it would help if we did not take every word literally."

    You're preaching to the choir. I'm objecting because so many believers do take the word literally. Let's not pretend this isn't the case.

    @ Mick

    "...why does an atheist always flock to the religious articles..."

    Three reasons this atheist does:

    1 - To pay forward the good deed done by atheists before me who let themselves be known. It's important to know you're neither alone nor crazy.

    2 - Because I believe religion is ultimately more harmful than beneficial.

    3 - Because it helps me.

  • Swan Ronson St. Louis, MO
    Aug. 14, 2017 10:05 a.m.

    joe5 & Notso Fast

    The world is full of people that "know" things that are objectively false. I can't prove you don't "know" what you say you know, and you sure as shootin' can't prove that you do.

    I would hope you would at least acknowledge that you have heard someone make a claim of knowledge that you absolutely reject as false. Millions of people once "knew" the sun was a god riding a chariot across the sky. Many were probably absolutely sure of it, to the point they would stake their lives and their families' lives on it. So, what did the word "know" mean in that case? Oh yeah; it meant "believe."

  • Mick , 00
    Aug. 13, 2017 7:16 p.m.

    Karen-

    My real question is why does an atheist always flock to the religious articles and comment section? Why do you care?

  • Holycow Provo, UT
    Aug. 13, 2017 6:31 p.m.

    Sounds like she's still trying to convince herself why she stays. She stays because- she hopes for more from the Gospel. Why should she need to hope for more from God? God should be giving plenty enough if it's truly his gospel. We are all his children. No one is 2nd class & no one should be made to feel 2nd class. We're half the population and we're the only option for procreation. We've got tons of leverage. Like Oliver- We want MORE!!

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 13, 2017 8:45 a.m.

    Strong LDS women go to Church, marry in the faith, stay home and raise their children, teaching them not to quarrel and fight or be idle, nourishing them spiritually, emotionally, and physically. They support and are meet companions for their husbands, while serving themselves. Their husbands support and honor them and appreciate them, while their wives are also strong enough to do the same for their own chosen partner.

  • Glenn101 Seven Springs, NC
    Aug. 13, 2017 1:23 a.m.

    Karen R, I do not really think that this article was written to convince skeptics. She was explaining herself, her reasoning. She did note that she was not even attempting to speak for other women, but only for herself. It may resonate with other women that feel the way she does, but will not move most skeptics. They can only be moved by the Holy Spirit, which is what she is essentially claiming for herself.

    And maybe it would help if we did not take every word literally. After all, if you were to ask a person if they were ready for say test or maybe just a hike and the person replied "I was born ready," I do not think that anyone would actually expect that the person was ready to take a test or take a hike the moment they uttered their first vocal displeasure at having been removed from the safety and comfort of the mother's womb.

    Glenn

  • FJSL Houston, TX
    Aug. 13, 2017 1:05 a.m.

    @ KevinSim

    Karen R. here.

    "So, apparently knowledge doesn’t always require proof, at least in mathematics."

    I’m not a mathematician, so these are my questions:

    Are mathematical proofs based solely on axioms?

    Axioms like a+b = b+a are pretty much universally accepted, aren’t they? Can we say this about your proposed axiom?

    If gods and religion aren’t mathematics, then your asserted axiom must establish itself as true in the non-math world to qualify as more than conjecture, correct? How is this typically done?

    And finally, if knowledge is impossible, how can we already know things? (You wrote, "Proof is the process of going from what we already know...")

  • 2close2call Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 13, 2017 12:18 a.m.

    @joe5 "In my opinion, the best comment made in this entire discussion was largely overlooked. It was Irony Guy (9am on 10 Aug) who said:

    "I sat in a restaurant last night next to two families. One guy swilling beer in front of his family, the mom covered with tattoos instead of clothing. The faces of the children were empty, hopeless, kind of gray."

    Totally disagree with this comment, Joe! To me it is very judgmental, using only very superficial, one time observations.

  • FJSL Houston, TX
    Aug. 12, 2017 7:51 p.m.

    @ joe5

    Karen R. here. Forgot to say this before.

    "...by their fruits, ye shall know them...love one another..."

    What one thinks of another's fruits depends on one's point of view (POV). Supporters of the 9/11 hijackers see them as heroes. How do we know they’re wrong? I’ve learned here that love can sometimes appear quite harsh in our eyes, but if we could just see the whole picture like your god can, we’d understand and see the love too.

    So fruits aren't a reliable measure because POV is subjective and possibly incomplete. Irony Guy can't possibly know that how he saw the scene at the restaurant is accurate. It's a snapshot in time and his POV could reflect nothing more than his biases. But at least in that case the truth could be determined. It can't be in the context of gods, as you admitted yourself.

    So please tell me why, if it would be dishonest of me to claim that I know that gods don’t exist*, believers who are aware that their claims are unfalsifiable shouldn't be held to the same standard?

    *(I'm convinced. I don't "know.")

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 12, 2017 8:46 a.m.

    FJSL: First, I do respect the personal experience of people of all faiths and even people of no faith. I believe each person is on his own path to discovering the ultimate truth about God and his plan for them. However, we each then get to make decisions and seek other experiences that will either advance toward that truth or divert away from it. So, besides personal experience, another part of the equation is captured in sayings like "by their fruits, ye shall know them" and "love one another; by this shall all men know ye are my disciples."

    In my opinion, the best comment made in this entire discussion was largely overlooked. It was Irony Guy (9am on 10 Aug) who said:

    "I sat in a restaurant last night next to two families. One guy swilling beer in front of his family, the mom covered with tattoos instead of clothing. The faces of the children were empty, hopeless, kind of gray.

    "The other family talked excitedly about mission calls. They were upbeat, energetic, their faces full of hope and faith.

    "When people ask me about why I commit to the LDS gospel, I say just watch people. You'll see the proof with your own eyes."

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Aug. 12, 2017 7:51 a.m.

    It's OK if you were not born 'knowing'. If you went through the rituals time and again and came to the conclusion that this is not affirmation but indoctrination.
    If you've heard every teleological or ontological argument there is and found that everyone who triumphantly argues their way to the conclusion of a god has yet to even consider why they can tell you what to eat or how to dress or whether you can have a cup of coffee. Arguing that god exists is not the same as arguing that yours is the correct one.
    It's OK to be strong and outside of the church, too. Don't be bullied into the idea that it is a prerequisite for being a functional, contributing person in society.

  • FJSL Houston, TX
    Aug. 12, 2017 5:51 a.m.

    @ 2 bits

    "Why would God ask us to..."

    A nonsensical question to an atheist.

    "But we also need a way to confirm when we are on the right track.. .don't we?"

    It certainly would aid the project if believers could provide confirmation, but all that's offered is assertions, assumptions, and subjective experience indistinguishable from confirmation bias.

    @ joe5

    "There is no way for you to prove that nobody knows..."

    Exactly. An unfalsifiable claim cannot be proven. So what is the justification for claiming anyway that, "I know my god exists and wants X from me?" Faith of course, which is more than your garden-variety type. How? Apparently simply by virtue of it being religious in nature.

    This is magical thinking.

    joe5: "Personal experience provides the strongest evidence of truth."
    notsofast: "Challenging me as 'not knowing' does not afford me the same respect that I afford you…"

    So we should accept as truth and respect the personal experience of the 9/11 hijackers…and the millions that share their views, right?

  • Notso fast Manti, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 10:34 p.m.

    I know.

    I respect that you know what you know.

    Challenging me as "not knowing" does not afford me the same respect that I afford you and ultimately, makes no difference to me.

    I still know.

    That's it. That's all.

  • kiama Chicago, IL
    Aug. 11, 2017 7:29 p.m.

    I fully respect the author's spiritual knowledge. I believe that people can "just know" things that are unseen. It might not make sense to others but clinging to that testimony can bring strength and happiness.

    I do take issue with the tone and title of this article, however. When you say, "strong women stay in the Church" you're saying that the only ones who leave are weak. I know many strong, faithful, loving women who have left the church, or who are having a really hard time staying - women who have been missionaries or Relief Society presidents, wonderful mothers, or caring visiting teachers. I know women who pray and read their scriptures faithfully and are fervently seeking answers in the right ways, but who have had serious trials of their faith and just can't hold on anymore. We need to stop saying that only the weak and worldly women have doubts. We need to stop saying, "Oh, well maybe if you just pray a little harder, you can be strong like me." We need to listen to, love and accept those who have doubts or different views. There are many in our congregations who need more support and less condemnation in their interactions with church members.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 5:23 p.m.

    KevinSim: Let's talk about proof. Someone mentioned that they KNOW the sun will rise tomorrow. What is their evidence? Experience. The sun has risen every day of their lives so they KNOW it will rise again.

    A wife may say she KNOWS her husband loves her. Her KNOWLEDGE is based on years of consistent experiences when he has shown his love through his words and actions. (That's why true love grows ever stronger for older people.)

    No reasonable person would claim math or scientific are the only evidence of truth. If so, we would have to discard almost everything we think we KNOW because science is consistently incorrect.

    In the 1940s, science said that touching a human heart would kill the person. Wrong.

    In the 1970s, science said that we would completely deplete the world's oil reserves by the end of the century. There are currently more oil reserves than any time in the history of mankind.

    The theory of relativity has been and will continue to be refined or modified to meet every edge case in the universe.

    Personal experience provides the strongest evidence of truth. Science is merely on way of testing the hypotheses that arise from our experiences.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 5:19 p.m.

    Mathematics starts from axioms and then expands to cover the entirety of mathematical knowledge. What if we consider the existence of a personal God an axiom? Actually, I think it's more than that. I think the existence of such a God is more a self-evident truth than any of the accepted axioms of mathematics. So on those days when I get up to bear my testimony on Fast Sundays, I now have no qualms declaring that I do know God has chosen the LDS Church to take His message to the world.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 5:18 p.m.

    1aggie posted:

    =Though i've had experiences I would describe as spiritual I don't use the term
    ="knowing" when speaking of spiritual things. I choose to believe I've had
    =spiritual experiences--by exercising faith.

    This was my approach for a while too. I had no problem telling people I have faith in God, and that I didn't, strictly speaking, KNOW that there was a God. But then I got to thinking, for the word "know" to have any meaning at all, it can't mean ability to prove its object neo-mathematically. If it did, then nobody would be able to know anything. Was that really the intent of our distant ancestor who coined the word "know," to set it up as an ideal that could never be actually achieved? I decided that I didn't think so.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 4:59 p.m.

    Karen R. posted:

    =The author can accurately and honestly claim that she was taught that she was
    =born knowing of a divinity within her and that she 100% believes this to be
    =true. But to turn this belief into knowledge requires proof.

    Proof is the process of going from what we already know, and then using rules of inference on them to conclude things we have newly discovered. So if this is true, and knowledge does indeed require proof, then doesn't that make knowledge impossible? How can we ever get started? I think it's pretty clear that you are saying that we are born knowing nothing, are you not? Then how does one ever gain one's first piece of knowledge? How does one prove something from nothing?

    Often when people talk of proof, mathematical proof is held up as the highest ideal. But mathematical proof relies on using those rules of inference on axioms, which axioms are by definition statements that are considered to be known to be true without proof. So, apparently knowledge doesn't always require proof, at least in mathematics.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 4:39 p.m.

    Sharrona posted:

    =The unregenerate (unsaved)person is dead in their sins (Romans 5:12). Without
    =the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message
    =of the gospel (Mark 4:11). The Total Inability of humans without a knowledge of
    =God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through
    =Christ (Eph 2:1-5).

    If we are in a world where a human starts out without any ability to "come to this knowledge," and without any ability to in the future come to this knowledge unless God makes "him alive through Christ," and if we are also in a world where a supernaturally powerful but deceptive being has a certain amount of influence, then how do you personally know that you HAVE come to any kind of knowledge? How do you know that you haven't simply been deceived by that evil one into THINKING that you have that knowledge?

    You quoted a lot of scriptures from the Bible. I guess I don't understand what good it does to quote them until you know that God WANTS us to use Bible scriptures to understand His truth. Do you know that He wants us to use them for that purpose? If you do know that He does, how do you know it?

  • Lilly Munster , 00
    Aug. 11, 2017 3:41 p.m.

    One commentator said....God has instructed us to avoid Socialism. He prefers capitalism.
    Really? So Jesus, after feeding the Five Thousand, wrote up a bill?
    The Good Samaritan sent an invoice?
    Charity, and almost all forms of generosity based on moral concern, is Socialism.
    Just ask any Capitalist. If they don't deserve a hand out, if they didn't earn it.....they are
    parasites. Get a Job, you lazy bum! says the Pharisee.

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 1:50 p.m.

    Swan: Please do not reflect your own limitations on me. Just because YOU don't know, how does that necessarily mean that nobody else can know? There is no way for you to prove that nobody knows so how can you "know" that. Using Karen R's logic, trot out your conclusive evidence to support such a global, unsubstantiated claim. Maybe if you caveated it with "I feel like I know that nobody can know ..."

    Instead, consider the possibility that you might just be naÏve (which simply means inexperienced). Again, your lack of experience does not translate to every person on earth having that same deficiency. I am certainly naÏve in some ways so I would never claim to be an expert in those areas. However, that doesn't seem to stop you from claiming expertise in the areas of your ignorance.

    So what exactly makes you so convinced that nobody else can know? Is it belief or faith? Put the shoe on your foot for a minute and see how it fits.

  • Manzanita , 00
    Aug. 11, 2017 1:32 p.m.

    @ Vermonter, who stated that Mormons keep learning until the day they die and that "the glory of God is intelligence".

    I really like this principle, but I found very little evidence of it within Mormonism. Instead of engaging the hard questions, more often than not Sunday services were nothing more than a catechism of rote questions and answers that never seemed to change. Any questioning that dared venture beyond these limits was usually met with responses such as, "that's not important to our salvation", "milk before meat", "God's ways are not our ways", "we'll find out in the millennium", and "some truths are not very useful."

    I understand why the Church places limits on what people can question and talk about, because the uncorrelated answers are not very faith promoting.

    But the second issue I have with saying "I know the Church is true", is that the Church places such a low value on that phrase. I remember in the MTC we were taught by apostles that even if we didn't know yet, then to just say we know because "a testimony is found in the bearing of it." Regrettably, I played along and bore false witness that I knew something to be true that I did not actually know.

  • Swan Ronson St. Louis, MO
    Aug. 11, 2017 1:01 p.m.

    Vermonter:

    It's not "offensive"; however, it is annoying, because it's incorrect. Really, it's just a quirk of Mormon culture that simply stating that you "believe" or "have faith" isn't good enough . . you have to "know" or you just don't measure up to the Bros and Sisters Jones.

    It starts when adorable little kids march adorably up to the pulpit and give that same "testimony" we've heard a million times. Mom and dad and the bishopric beam with pride, which reinforces the tyke's "testimony." "Golly gee whiz; Mommy and Daddy are proud of me! I said the right thing!" As we grow older, we say the same stuff, just in a more articulate way, but the motivation and psychology behind it is the same.

    We attended a private sacrament while on vacation overseas recently, and my bro-in-law (a stake president) gave a talk, during which he gave one of the most forceful "I KNOW THIS STUFF IS TRUE!!" talks I've ever heard, and frankly, it was strange. I still don't get why he was almost desperate to convince us that he KNEW, even though we were all aware of it.

    You can't convince skeptics (like me, a non-believing member) with sheer force of verbiage. You don't "know" what you know.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 12:40 p.m.

    I think we differ on definitions of "knowing, "choosing to believe," and having "faith."

    To me knowing something absolutely doesn't require faith. I know the sun rises and sets every day. I know I live in the U.S. and that I have a body . Though i've had experiences I would describe as spiritual I don't use the term "knowing" when speaking of spiritual things. I choose to believe I've had spiritual experiences--by exercising faith.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Aug. 11, 2017 12:27 p.m.

    @Swan Ronson.
    Sorry if the word "knowing" offends or seems incomprehensible in the context of a Supreme Being. But, for active Mormons, there really is no other English word as good as "know" to describe that mental understanding. At a certain point, the word "believe" is much too weak.

    And, why are Mormons so obsessed with "knowing?" Because they are taught that "the glory of God is intelligence, or light and truth." The ultimate quest for Mormons is to learn who God is, what God has done, and how God lives. A corollary is to learn every worthwhile thing that we can about the world around us. So, for active Mormons, the learning never stops, right up to the second we die.

    That process of learning is for the most part, understanding a principle, testing the principle through action, and gaining knowledge about the principle.

    Sorry if "knowing" does not seem appropriate, or if it offends. But, Mormons' greatest aspiration is to gain as much knowledge as we can in this life.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 12:17 p.m.

    RE: apm22 Joseph's polygamy/polyandry, etc.? I would like to hear a strong lds woman discuss these subjects to help us all navigate this information. Good point!

    -A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,..”(I Tim 3:2).,The Apostles did not maintain any O.T. pattern of polygamy and they and the early church condemned it.e.g..,

    1. Justin Martyr (c.160) rebukes the Jews for allowing polygamy. 2. Irenaeus (c.180) condemns the Gnostics for, among other things, polygamy."

    D&C 101: 4,”Inasmuch as this Church of Christ(JS) has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband”, also "(H of C, vol. 2, pg. 247 August 1835.)

    This scripture remained in the LDS canon until 1876,The general body of the church were informed about polygamy in 1852, at which time many practiced it because leaders like Brigham professed the necessity of it for Exaltation. Since ( July 1843), contradicted 101:4, It was removed in 1876, when section 132 was placed in the new edition.

  • Swan Ronson St. Louis, MO
    Aug. 11, 2017 11:25 a.m.

    "I was born knowing -- knowing -- that there was divinity in me."

    Once again, Mormons have this weird need to state their beliefs as if they are objective facts. Using the word "knowing" and adding it a second time for emphasis, doesn't make her statement more believable. You believe in a religion or God; you don't "know." Sorry; you just don't. The force with which you state your belief doesn't make the religion itself more true.

    "It's not the things you don't know that get you into trouble; it's the things you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Often attributed to Mark Twain, but who knows?

  • apm22 sparks, NV
    Aug. 11, 2017 10:49 a.m.

    Another strong woman comes to mind: Fawn Brodie. She wrote the book, "No Man Knows My History". I wonder if Eva has read that book? I also wonder if Eva has read the essays on lds.org regarding Race and the Priesthood, Book of Mormon Translation, Joseph's polygamy/polyandry, etc.? I would like to hear a strong lds woman discuss these subjects to help us all navigate this information.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 9:24 a.m.

    @Karen R,
    Why would God ask us to find him and his message to us... but then give us no way to find him, and no way to know when we have found him and his message?

    Of course we need to exercise faith. But we also need a way to confirm when we are on the right track.. .don't we?

    And why would he deny us that knowledge?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 9:14 a.m.

    RE: Karen R. “Spiritual Discernment.” (1 Cori 12:10.) “ He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from Another Spirit.” E.g..,

    The unregenerate (unsaved)person is dead in their sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11). The Total Inability of humans without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Eph 2:1-5).

    The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being. But,

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:8-10(NIV)

  • Third try screen name Mapleton, UT
    Aug. 11, 2017 8:31 a.m.

    To those posters who don't see Witesman's battle-of-the-sexes here, I simply ask, Then who is her antagonist?

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Aug. 11, 2017 4:29 a.m.

    @ ute alumni, mona, and moi2u

    Believers are taught to equate deep conviction with knowing, but they aren't the same. IMO understanding and respecting the distinction is important. (Perhaps critical in a world with WMDs.)

    @ Cinci Man

    I'm genuinely interested to hear what you think I'm not being honest about.

    @ Mick

    "Do you offer proof of what you believe…"

    As a rule, I do try to limit my comments to what I can back up. (You know this from personal experience. You've challenged my comments before.)

    @ John Charity Spring

    I’m afraid the reference means nothing to me.

    @ Vermonter

    I think it's a careless and devaluing use of the concept that enables truly dangerous claims of knowing like, "Our god wants us to fly planes into buildings," or more recently from a popular Baptist preacher, "God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong-un."

    @ NoNamesAccepted

    To me, your question is nonsensical.

    @ Craig Clark

    Your comment made me grin. As you’ve probably noticed, I’m not nearly as circumspect as you!

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:58 p.m.

    @ Commenter88

    "For the critic to say that one cannot know something about oneself..."

    If I'm "the critic," please identify where in any of my comments I say this. (And regardless of who “the critic” is, why didn’t you just address the person directly? I found that odd.)

    The author can accurately and honestly claim that she was taught that she was born knowing of a divinity within her and that she 100% believes this to be true. But to turn this belief into knowledge requires proof. Tell me how one goes about proving that this belief is true.

  • Martinluther2017 South Hackensack, NJ
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:48 p.m.

    The problem is the restoration gospel you speak of means we must conclude
    All the reformation fathers were false and no living Christian existed till 1830
    From 100 ad after all the apostles died off and the whole Christian church fell
    Into apostasy this told by a wild eyed over imagitive boy who spun tall tales
    And was into peep stoning the idea of searching for buried treasure by look at a stone in a hat and seeing where the treasure was buried this by a boy of 17
    Knowing better then all the living and past living people on the earth this sound
    More like science fiction then fact even current leaders of the lds church admit
    That the lds brand of Christianity. Is far different then those of us who call ourselves biblical evangelical Christian I think all lds members should take a challenge to study the Bible alone for one month and not use any lds material
    Or the Book of Mormon or any other lds sacred scriptures and see what you come up with

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Aug. 10, 2017 7:55 p.m.

    @ ute alumni, mona, and moi2u

    Believers are taught to equate deep conviction with knowing, but they aren't the same. IMO understanding and respecting the distinction is important. (Perhaps critical in a world with WMDs.)

    @ Cinci Man

    I'm genuinely interested to hear what you think I'm not being honest about.

    @ Mick

    "Do you offer proof of what you believe…"

    I do limit my comments to what I can back up with evidence if challenged (you know this from personal experience) or I try to remember to make it clear that I’m speaking from opinion only.

    @ John Charity Spring

    I’m afraid the reference means nothing to me.

    @ Vermonter

    I think it's a careless and devaluing use of the concept that enables truly dangerous claims of knowing like, "Our god wants us to fly planes into buildings," or more recently from a popular Baptist preacher, "God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong-un."

    @ NoNamesAccepted

    To me, your question is nonsensical.

    @ Craig Clark

    Your comment made me grin. As you’ve probably noticed, I’m not nearly as circumspect as you!

  • Brody Jackson, MS
    Aug. 10, 2017 7:09 p.m.

    Anyone obviously has the right to believe anything they like.

    As a former mormon, I was absolutely convinced I knew the church was true.

    I'm not here to get snarky, but the leadership had acknowledged there was never any revelation to ban blacks from the priesthood. (Their words, not mine.) There also is no canonical revelation disallowing women from the priesthood. (I'm aware there are statements by Mormon prophets, but if you read stuff that Brigham Young said, it makes you cringe.) And canonical revelations must be voted on by the body of the church, making Proclamation of the family, non-canonical.

    The Book of Mormon has stories of the people petitioning the prophet. Why should someone get excommunicated for asking the leadership to approach God to give women the priesthood? These men have been wrong before (they were about black people). Why should they be so sure they are right now?

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Aug. 10, 2017 6:54 p.m.

    The comparison of spiritual feelings and sexual orientation comes from ignorance. I fully understand the spiritual feelings of testimony but found they are subject to broader knowledge and experience. I have not found my sexual orientation to be subject to anything. Are there some who may have a different experience with sexual orientation..probably, but it is not a general rule. Broader knowledge and experience very often effect spiritual feelings, thus the Mormon church's aversion to broader investigation (it's not spiritually uplifting..no kidding).

    I have to admit after experiencing all the contradictions, and inconsistencies of the Mormon faith, if I were to actually awake and find they were right..my first comment to God would be..you're kidding.

  • Kim2141 Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 4:23 p.m.

    @Skeptic - Phoenix, AZ
    Re., "The church needs to give the priesthood to the women and enhance the church's whole." Based on this comment, I am assuming you are not a member of the LDS church. As such, I cannot fault you for not knowing how things work in our church. The prophet and apostles leading this church do not make decisions based on what is politically correct, popular or even what would possibly enhance the church's whole. They are under the direct guidance of our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Either from them directly or through prayer, fasting and revelation they are commanded in how to lead the church. Who should receive the priesthood is God's decision, not man's. As a woman in the church I am satisfied with the incredible role I have to play and grateful for the priesthood my father, husband and sons hold and the way it has blessed all of our lives.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Aug. 10, 2017 4:07 p.m.

    @HSTucker wrote,

    "With practice, spiritual discernment becomes just another of our senses, by which we can come to believe and even "know" things."

    I see a problem here. I have known many people who told me that they "knew" that they belonged to the one, true church.

    Some were LDS. Others were Catholics. Others were evangelical Protestants. Still others were Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I know only a handful of Muslims and Christian Scientists, but I have no doubt that there are people belonging to those religions who would say the same thing. Each of them believes that they are right.

    I can't tell you who is right. Maybe all of them. Maybe none of them.

    Caring for my fellow man and caring for the Earth is, to me, the most important thing. You are entitled to believe differently.

  • Commenter88 Salt Lake City, Utah
    Aug. 10, 2017 4:05 p.m.

    Some of these comments are interesting. Telling someone that they cannot know something about themselves is profoundly ironic, and inaccurate. What you know about yourself is not an external, objective, reality that can be examined with a scientific method, so it is de facto.

    For the critic to say that one cannot know something about oneself is, for the critic, imbuing him or herself with an omniscient perspective (the very quality the critic claims cannot make such a thing as God).

    It's sort of like saying "there is no way of knowing something like God exists, unless you are thinking of me, because I have the very qualities that I assert do not exist."

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 3:08 p.m.

    @Marxist,
    Re: "Men who do not seek profit are regarded as lesser men. Agree?"...
    ---
    No. Disagree.

    Men in the church are not ranked by income. Neither are women. Income is irrelevant in the gospel.

    Remember his instructions to the rich man?

    "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God". So obviously riches are not needed.

    Think President Monson sought profit? I don't.

    President Monson never had a high paying job. And yet... he was called to lead, as Bishop, Stake President, Mission President, General Authority, Apostle (at age 36), and President of the Church. Never earning a lot of money.

    He wasn't after money.

    Income is irrelevant.

    Men who earn less are not "lesser men".

    ===

    How does God view capitalism?...
    ---
    I don't know. But he hasn't instructed us to stop it (through his prophets). He has instructed us to avoid Socialism (through many prophets, President Benson being one of the most vocal prophets on this).

    ===

    Is it God's economic system?
    ---
    He doesn't have an economic system. He doesn't have any money. And when he returns we will not have an economic system (like any we know today).

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 2:32 p.m.

    joe5 . The Savior was the most humble of all human beings yet he never said he was anything less than the Son of God.

    "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied=( kenosis)Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross," (Phil. 2:5-8).

    Anselm.. Why God Became Man,” For God will not do it, because he does not owe it, and man will not do it, because he cannot. Therefore, for the God-Man to do this, the person who is to make the satisfaction must be both perfect God and perfect man, because none but true God can make it, and none but true man owes it."

    Athanasius', Theosis "the reintegration of the divine image of man's creation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit conforming the redeemed into the likeness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the believer's transition from mortality to immortality so that he is enabled to participate in the eternal bliss the kingdom of God."

  • moi2u Cleveland, OH
    Aug. 10, 2017 2:21 p.m.

    Kaern R (Houston)- Knowledge is not merely a "feeling"-feelings are based on belief. Knowledge is truth and God's truth boldly declared is endowed with power from on high. For example, I can honestly declare that I was born knowing (not feeling) that I Am A Child of God and that He loves me, unconditionally, and always has from before the foundation of the world. Because of this sure knowledge, come what may, I can never deny that as fact. This knowledge serves to generate continued faith in Our Lord that He will give us the strength to handle what may yet come in our lives for good or ill. You ask for proof of such boldly declared knowledge-there is no 'proof' other than to experience it for yourself. The Scriptures declare that it's not only possible for everyone who seeks. Once we receive it we may "strengthen our brethren" as Jesus said to Peter. If you haven't already, I invite you to experience it for yourself so that you may boldly declare "I Know" without hesitation. Jesus gave you the promise in James 1:5. Joseph boldly declared he 'knew' because he had a sure witness. Millions of lives have changed for good since then because of his bold declaration of "I Know."

  • Laura Billington Maple Valley, WA
    Aug. 10, 2017 2:19 p.m.

    @John Charity Spring wrote,

    "Karen R would be wise to remember that those once bitten by a snake fear even a coiled rope."

    Unfortunately, John, but most of us are not as intelligent as you are, and we have no clue as to what your references to coiled ropes, Kaiser Wilhelm, or your antipathy toward crocs and nachos have to do with the subject at hand. Can you please tell us lesser beings what on earth your are talking about?

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 2:11 p.m.

    "Why do strong women stay in the church? I cannot answer this question for anyone else."

    I would agree with that statement. But, your point gets a little muddied when you use the phrase "strong women" as if you are speaking for all "(strong) women" who maintain activity in the LDS Church.

    What do you mean by "strong women?" Are you speaking of "strong" as independent of men's opinion or defined roles or?

    Sometimes it is "strong" to challenge the status quo, or to ask questions. Civilization would not have advanced were it not for those who questioned and challenged.

    Seminary is where your questions are answered and life after seminary is when your answers are questioned."
    (Bill Moyers)

  • Manzanita , 00
    Aug. 10, 2017 1:34 p.m.

    I do not doubt the sincerity of the author's words, and although I've left the Church, I hope that women with strong voices such as hers are given more room within Mormonism.

    However, it is equally as valid to point out that many strong women have also left the Church. They've left for various reasons, some of them being the realization that what's good about Mormonism is not necessarily unique, and what's unique about Mormonism is not necessarily good. There are many, many paths to a good, happy, moral life. When I realized I could seek out the divine and mysteries of life's important questions without the burden of rationalizing Joseph's Smith's child brides, peep stones, and the Church's history against racial minorities and LGBTQ folks, a new world opened up to me that is full of more wonder and awe and exhilaration than Mormonism ever offered me.

    I understand and respect that Mormonism works for a lot of people, but it seems there are more and more of us who are finding a different, happier, and more fulfilling path.

  • HSTucker Holladay, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 1:33 p.m.

    @Danny Chipman: I was about to write something similar but you did a great job.

    Speaking of the blind, it is not uncommon for the blind to develop a "sixth sense" that allows them to perceive obstacles. (Google, e.g., human echolocation)

    One can imagine a blindfolded person declaring their skepticism that a blind person could possibly "know" of an object without being able to see it.

    With practice, spiritual discernment becomes just another of our senses, by which we can come to believe and even "know" things.

  • IAlaw Council Bluffs, IA
    Aug. 10, 2017 1:11 p.m.

    This article is spectacular. I am always inspired by women of faith who refuse to be dragged down to the level of society's dim view of their nature, role, identity, and potential.

    Women are divine; they are literally God's crowning creation. And nothing short of the gospel of Jesus Christ can do justice to femininity fully understood.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 1:09 p.m.

    It's because as men age, we're less likely to be emotionally manipulated.

  • Mona Portland, OR
    Aug. 10, 2017 12:47 p.m.

    But Karen R., she didn't "feel like" she knew. She knew. I knew too. Perhaps that's a spiritual gift some are born with, yet all can have the knowing, if they would only seek after it.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 12:33 p.m.

    @2bits "Anyone who actually understands the gospel (and not the gender-based angst many in the world live with today), you would know for sure that both genders are equal (in God's eyes)."

    So, 2bits, since you understand God's view of the world, how does God view society? How does God view capitalism? Is it God's economic system?

    These are important questions, because capitalism and Mormonism have particular expectations of men. In Mormondom the best men are profit seeking. Men who do not seek profit are regarded as lesser men. Agree?

    Is is alright in God's eyes for people, both genders, not to be aggressive in amassing personal wealth?

    At some point in the future we have to come to grips with what is desirable in human behavior, what is optimum. In the meantime I fully acknowledge there are strong women in the Church. I know many of them, but I would like to have more opportunity to understand how they view their role.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 12:30 p.m.

    @Karen R.: Do you demand that same level of "humility" when it comes to knowing one's sexual orientation or identity?

    @Impartial7: Does that confusion extend to "knowing" whether various conditions are the result of nature or nurture? Or "knowing" that a particular religion is a fraud?

    Why do those who most quickly jump on the bandwagon of "do what works for you without worrying about what society, family, or religion tells you" most reliably turn around and question the veracity or efficacy of someone's deeply personal experience? Is not the author entitled to her truth just as you are entitled to your truth? Or is personal, relative truth only available to those who reject religion, cast off proven values, and spend their free time attacking and tearing down?

    Must every religiously uplifting article be attacked? Is it not possible to ignore? Or to simply post, "She seems like a bright, articulate, empowered person. If it works for her, I'm happy for her."?

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 12:07 p.m.

    I didn't see this as a gender-centric op-ed. What she felt, I felt. Even though I was not born into the LDS church (I was Catholic), I felt that same divinity within me and the doctrines and practices of the LDS church provided a perfect resonance for what was already in my mind and heart. Her sentiments are not reserved for women alone but for all of us who have the courage to admit and explore our divinity.

    As for humility, the Savior was the most humble of all human beings yet he never said he was anything less than the Son of God. Joseph Smith admitted his ignorance but he never said he was stupid or denied that he was called of God to be a prophet. It is not proud to admit our inherent greatness. In fact, it is a false pride that claims we are anything less than we truly are. People who do so are usually fishing for compliments in order to satisfy their pride.

    Those who doubt her knowledge need to come to terms with the idea that their lack of spiritual experience is a reflection of them and not an indictment of everyone else. Your lack of experience is not evidence that such experiences are contrived or impossible.

  • Danny Chipman Lehi, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 11:41 a.m.

    Does a person blind from birth "know" what the color red is, beyond its numerical wavelength and frequency on a spectrum? Does a healthy person "know" what it is like to have a crippling, painful illness? There are some things that are knowable only to those who have the sense to perceive them. Fortunately, a sense of spiritual perception--a sixth sense, if you will--can be developed by all. Like a muscle, it has to be exercised. Some have allowed theirs to atrophy. To deny someone's earnest spiritual perception and truth is to deny the color red exists--because you can't see it for yourself.

  • CMTM , 00
    Aug. 10, 2017 11:09 a.m.

    RE: Mick . “ was born knowing there is divinity in me.”

    ”(2Peter 1:4).“... so that through them you may participate=(koinnos/*communion ).=The Apostles Creed/The communion of Saints.

    E.g..,- Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature-image The Orthodox(Christian) Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and Not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Our full union with God is a union with the "energies" of God. These energies, while an extension of God, are not to be confused with the "essence" or "substance" of God, which is unknown by humans and is shared only by the Holy Trinity. Our union with God will Not make us gods but will make us partners in the Divine nature in works not in essence. We will Not acquire the unique characteristics of such as being the Creator, the Omnipresence, Self-existence,(aseity).

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 10:55 a.m.

    RE: 2 bits .”If you accept what God has revealed in the proclamation to the world.” True,

    The priesthood of all believers. (1 Peter 2:5-9 NIV). "You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ … But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

    Believers are called "royal priesthood" as a reflection of their privileged status as heirs to the kingdom of the Almighty God and no other earthly mediator is necessary.

    RE: Cinci Man. The offspring of God, is referring to those who have been born spiritually of God. (Acts 17:29) Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become( for they are not naturally) children of God (John 1:12)
    That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirt”. (John 3:6). This passage contradicts the concept of a flesh and bone Heavenly Mother who gives birth to heavenly spirit babies.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Aug. 10, 2017 10:52 a.m.

    When people insist they know of a surety, know beyond a shadow of a doubt, know with every fiber of their being that something is true, I can’t tell them that they can’t or don’t. Or at least I know better than to try

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 10:24 a.m.

    I re-read her letter, and I didn't see her denigrating or elevating either gender. So I don't understand why so many have tried to derail this onto the gender equality path (when that's not what the letter was about).

    Anyone who actually understands the gospel (and not the gender-based angst many in the world live with today), you would know for sure that both genders are equal (in God's eyes).

    Proof:
    Google and Read "The Family: A Proclamation to the World"...
    1. “Fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. "

    "EQUAL" partners. Not one President of the family and the other vice-president. EQUAL partners.

    Read the rest. It confirms what she stated in her letter (about our divine nature, etc).

    There is nothing in the proclamation on the family that states one gender is less than the other, in the family or anywhere. We have different roles in the family... but that doesn't make one superior to the other. We are equal partners.

    If you accept what God has revealed in the proclamation to the world (which it sounds like she has) then there is no reason for a strong woman who accepts her role as "Equal Partner" to leave the family, or the church.

  • The True Open Minded Mormon Draper, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:57 a.m.

    The only people who confuse feelings for knowing are those who do not know. Those of us who do know, know.

    No amount of explanation can compensate for failure to follow the prescribed path to know.

    It's always up to us, each individual. One can stay wondering or one can know.

    Grateful that the women in my life; Grandma's, mother, wife and daughters ALL KNOW!!

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:55 a.m.

    @Bloodhound - Provo, UT
    Re: "If these women (or men for that matter) are so strong, why do they need God?"...
    ---
    No matter how strong you are, or how strong willed you are... you still come up short in life and need God, redemption, and grace.

    Nobody is perfect (no matter how strong). It's human nature that we can't become so strong and perfected that we no longer need God. That philosophy is like people of Babel thinking they are so strong and awesome they can build a tower back to God's presence, and get back to him without following his path (repentance and grace).

    We all have weaknesses and need God to help us overcome, even the strongest of us. That is true.

    As for your assessment... "more humility needed"... that's your judgement. We are told not to judge. That's God's job.

    More humility is always a good thing. But let's not judge her from a letter.

    I'll bet if you got to know her more, you would find she is very humble (though strong willed and bold in her testimony of the gospel).

    Being confident in your testimony does not mean you are not humble.

    The more I contemplate the gospel... the more humble I become. I suspect she is the same.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:51 a.m.

    @Impartial7.
    People often accuse those who claim to "know" something of being deluded by their "feelings," especially if it goes against the conventional wisdom of the day, or in our day, politically correct thinking. This gives the people that accuse, the excuse that they need to side-step any critical examination the issue.

  • SteveAaron Arcadia, CA
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:50 a.m.

    The headline feels self-aggrandizing. Why not say "Why I choose the church" instead?

    As it stands, it's not going to help my wife feel any more inclined to come back to church.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:50 a.m.

    We're all people. Time to stop the division of men and women into irreconcilable and opposing genders.

  • slowdive Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:40 a.m.

    I wish I knew for certainty what you know, but I tend to agree more with Alfred Lord Tennyson: “There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds.”

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:30 a.m.

    People often confuse "knowing" with "feelings".

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:28 a.m.

    @Tony1234.
    You are absolutely right. Especially in the LDS Church, we need women to have a platform to make sure their voices are heard and their wisdom is acted on.

    For the past 10 years or so, 3 women in each ward and branch have been included in the Ward and Branch Council. But, too often bishops and other priesthood leaders simply don't bother to listen and try to understand women's different perspectives and the wisdom these women have. So, most of these women just stop talking. They figure, why bother.

    The Church cannot move forward the way it needs to until the men become real partners with women in leading local wards and branches.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:14 a.m.

    @Karen R.
    As always, I appreciate your perspective.

    Just because I may not have experienced always knowing something from my earliest memory, like Eva Witesman or Gordon B. Hinckley, I cannot discount the honest description of Witesman's and Hinckley's experience. It does not make me any less of a person. It just means my personal experience is different.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:07 a.m.

    It is true one of the better parts of the Mormon church are the women. Therefore, the church needs to give the priesthood to the women and enhance the church's whole.

  • Third try screen name Mapleton, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:03 a.m.

    I am troubled by Eva's tone here, as well as the tone of her devotional speech. At the heart of it, she presupposes that men in the LDS Church are out to suppress women and demean them. Any obstacle to her personal success can be attributed to those Neanderthal Mormon Men.

    I reject her very premise. She paints with a very broad brush here. Sure, there are men who seek to dominate others...but there are just as many dominating women who henpeck their husbands.

    Her message oozes with paranoia and self-righteousness. Note her remarks about her own greatness. The Lord doesn't sanction such attitudes.

  • John Charity Spring Back Home in Davis County, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 9:00 a.m.

    Karen R would be wise to remember that those once bitten by a snake fear even a coiled rope.

  • Mick , 00
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:54 a.m.

    Karen-

    Do you offer proof of what you believe or the opinions you state on these boards. You do seem to flock to the religion articles.

    I would also like to state I was born knowing there is divinity in me and that we are destined for a greater purpose. This life is not as good as it gets.

  • MormonForever St George, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:33 a.m.

    Amen and YES YES YES Eva!!! Very well written Op-ed.

  • Tony1234 Farmington, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:15 a.m.

    Thanks for sharing. Here's to us giving a platform to these strong women. Let them speak, let them lead and let us all start listening. We have strong women in the church, let's give them space to be who they are.

  • The True Open Minded Mormon Draper, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:15 a.m.

    absolutely beautiful!! I wish more LDS women would speak these truths. We do come here knowing already as this life is just a continuation of the pre-mortal period.

    We do know. It's up to us to continue our progression. The skeptics will never understand...because they didn't fully understand before.

    Carry on strong women of faith!!

  • Bloodhound Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:06 a.m.

    If these women (or men for that matter) are so strong, why do they need God? Personally, I know I have a lot of weaknesses and need God to help me overcome, or at least, deal with them. I suppose I may be strong in some things...but life and experience may even wear those strengths down over time. This talk sounds too worldly for me. Less feminist humanism and more humility may be needed.

  • RWOFVA RIVERTON, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:04 a.m.

    Seems this article will both lift the faithful and trigger the skeptic. The faithful like to be lifted but man do the skeptical love to be triggered.

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    Aug. 10, 2017 8:02 a.m.

    Karen R.

    "A skeptic like me...".

    That's a good one. You should be as honest about yourself as you require others to be. Thanks for the humor. I don't think the article was written for you to benefit from. It was written for those who wish to be strengthened in their faith.

  • ute alumni Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 7:58 a.m.

    Karen
    Who are you to tell someone what they know to be true. Libs have all the answers and reject those that have differing views. Sad.

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    Aug. 10, 2017 7:08 a.m.

    Great article. Great attitude. Great outlook. Great faith. Great testimony.
    Great truth. Great YES, YES, YES! Thanks for writing.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    Aug. 10, 2017 7:08 a.m.

    Faith is fulfilling. Identity politics leaves a person empty.

  • MarkMAN West Columbia, TX
    Aug. 10, 2017 6:54 a.m.

    This is a powerful powerful article. Writes so much in just a few words.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Aug. 10, 2017 6:23 a.m.

    "I was born knowing — knowing — that there was divinity in me."

    This is an extraordinary statement. A skeptic like me would be willing to respect it if it started a little more humbly - and accurately - with, "I feel like I was born knowing..." (Or proof of the assertion could be offered. There's always that option.)